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INTEREST: Under the Dog Producer Hiroaki Yura Also Talks Production Committees, Moe in Reddit's AMA


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animefanworried



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:41 pm Reply with quote
Moe is simply the leading trend right now (Which is actually fading, albeit slowly), they are plenty of non-moe series being made; unless you have the retard definition of moe and think modern artstyle = moe. I also don't see how avoiding otaku pandering to do western pandering solves the "artistic problems" of the industry but each group gotta lobby for their side.

I wonder how many people actually realize the mainstream western audiences don't give a flying f*** about gritty anime and think animation is for kids, hence the result of the western animation industry of mostly superheroes, kids' stuff or adult sitcoms. That only a niche group of western anime fans actually really are into the entire gritty anime thing and that such anime are only produced because otaku actually care about them. Anime simply doesn't make enough profit to be justifiable in its creation for a an overseas niche audience alone; its the home market, the "otaku" market that demands series like Fate/Zero, Attack on Titan and Psycho-Pass (To be fair, Attack on Ttian at least has the shonen market going for it like Naruto and other such series do). And those series are aimed at otaku audiences specifically because the mainstream audience decided to support stuff like Pokémon, Doraemon and so on (Not that these are bad either). They'd probably have a heart attack if they ever realized their precious "Gritty western anime" are actually really otaku series of a different brand aimed at their sensibilities.

LavenderMintRose wrote:
From what I've heard about various specific series in the past, it seems like the sort of executive meddling he's referring to happens to all sorts of things. Besides things that happened with the second season of a popular mecha series that I mentioned (stuff like, "Add fanservice," and "make it work more for people who didn't watch season 1"), I've heard that some other series had political themes toned down and stuff like that.

I'm probably one of the few who doesn't think the second season of Code Geass was bad. I thought it was every bit as good if not better than the first season. As far as executive meddling, the added fanservice was only really noticeable in the school-break episodes and only bad if you actually don't like fanservice in a non intrusive manner. They did make it work for people who hadn't seen season 1, but they still manage to take up right were they left in season one. It only really resulted in an episode 1 of season 2 being a parallel of episode 1 of season 1. The politics were actually more prominent in the second season 2, as was Lelouch's ingenuity.


Last edited by animefanworried on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Errinundra
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Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 5833
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:46 pm Reply with quote
My reading is something like this: the creators had their pitch but their potential backers asked for changes or otherwise required they show market support for their concept; the creators are using Kickstarter to demonstrate that support. I imagine that by reaching their funding goal they may get external backing.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1204
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Ahhh, tears of immeasurable sadness, soooo delicious. Laughing Though seriously you guys, you don't need to be so defensive about your tastes. "Moe" wasn't always a huge thing in the industry, and the sooner you can accept that, the sooner you can accept your own tastes and be proud of them. It isn't about "selective memory", it's about realizing that industry trends change, along with culture and tastes.

Anyways, I'll take the opinion of a producer entrenched in the industry over a forum-dweller any day. Cool

...kidding, kidding! Laughing

...well maybe not entirely... Wink
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Nonaka Machine Gun B



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 748
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:55 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
Why do you think they're so unwilling to take risks? I feel it's because they have so many times in the past and the risks didn't pay off despite best intentions, like Basquash, Samurai Champloo, Kaiba, Fractale, Aku no Hana, and others.


Isn't that just another factor in all of this, though? It's less a case of "nobody wants to watch this shit" and more about finding ways where creating projects like these aren't a risk to begin with, or at least much less so than when five different companies dip their toes in alligator-infested waters; all focused on covering their own asses and bottom lines.
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kabochaone



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:03 pm Reply with quote
I am having a blast with all the denial from people like walw6pK4Alo Very Happy SAIKOU DESU!

I love how users like the above ones conveniently skip how this guy has said the problem is NOT moe (we can dump there fanservice as well, but moe is the one that started to ruin it), the problem is the overexposure of it, a little is good, no problem there, too much gives one diarrhea. Of course Japanese otaku are moe and fanservice gluttons, bottomless stomachs there.

You cannot deny the trends that have taken over later night anime, niche anime, whatever you want to call it, this is what needs to be reduced to bearable levels.

So for the above guy.

@walw6pK4Alo

You are correct, moe is not bad, too muhc of it si bad, and anyone can see it, of course not the gluttons, people like you are happy and oblivious to the fact that there is too much of it, for people like you there is never too much of it evidently.

And comparing Kabocha wine, marmalade boy, Kimagure to the likes of k-on, non non biyori, Haruhi, and countless generic or high quality moe or fanservice !!! Smile Amazing really!

I love denial mode, when is us fans that tell you moe has ruined anime, not economically, NO, of course not, its amazing really for profits, but in terms of creativity, freedom, variety, variety in the sense I dont need to see fanserive or moe at all for a series to sell and succeed, he is right saying creatores have to put up with moe character o moefy characters, then we suck, we are blind, we have no idea what we are talking about sure...

... And so when is one the guys responsible to create also such anime, creators, the one that make your anime, they are also wrong for pointing out the obvious, of course your moe-faservice is all right for you, of course it is, its like telling and alcoholic that drinking too much alcohol is bad right, of course it is not bad.

Awesome really, having a blast!

So yeah you are right walw6pK4Alo, its not moe or fanservice that are actually bad (it was never actually, too much of it is), is that todays fans like garbage, they are given garbage and follow in with the latest moe/fanservice of the season exactly like sheep. Cant help it if todays otaku have such bad taste, these are the current times, cant be helped.

Lastly the delusional guy saying moe is not a genre, todays moe IS A GENRE, your supposed "feeling of" has taken a very aggressive and visual form since 8 years ago and very well defined characteristics, same as a genre.PERIOD.

That is why this guy goes as far as saying "moe characters" you know, its one of the creators saying it not a MOE-IGNORANT fan, you have indeed MOE CHARACTERS something the moe gurus are so quick to point about doe snot exist Smile SURE....whatever you say.

animefanworried wrote:
Moe is simply the leading trend right now (Which is actually fading, albeit slowly), they are plenty of non-moe series being made


This part is right.

Its fading a little, of course it will overtime, one current otakus are a thing of the past, we will know how new generations will shape anime, will they follow in the same shameful ways of their senpais or not, or worst? looking forward to it Smile

Indeed there is lot more variety now since 2012, its not as bad and unbearable as 2007-2012, moe in its maximum overexposure, lots of fujoshi bait nowdays to counter male otaku!! SAIKOU DESU! Laughing With only very anime for refined tastes in search of quality anime, not the quality of giving you the best production values in your latest moe, or best pandering mind you. .
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kabochaone



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
Ahhh, tears of immeasurable sadness, soooo delicious. Laughing Though seriously you guys, you don't need to be so defensive about your tastes. "Moe" wasn't always a huge thing in the industry, and the sooner you can accept that, the sooner you can accept your own tastes and be proud of them. It isn't about "selective memory", it's about realizing that industry trends change, along with culture and tastes.

Anyways, I'll take the opinion of a producer entrenched in the industry over a forum-dweller any day. Cool

...kidding, kidding! Laughing

...well maybe not entirely... Wink


Exactly, we are supposed to take the word of random moe-fanservice fans that moe has not taken over the industry, ruined anime (not economically again), infests most anime (late night if you you wish) than one of the creative minds behind anime? SURE. Your are right random net dweller, your taste is SUPREME.

Your tastes bad or not, have shaped today's anime, for you is an AMAZING ERA, for the rest of us and even many creative minds, its now RUINED and downgraded, and any talented people feels it needs a change, you know, not me, not a random net dweller as wlel, but of the one of the many creatives minds sad that they need to moefy their vision to tailor it for you, clearly many are not liking it EVEN IF THEY ARE BEING PAID, which speaks volumes of the current generalized dissatisfaction.

Take it however you wish.


I really feel for people like Hiroaki Yura, having to work on project you dont like, making changes against your wishes to meet the taste of Japanese otaku gluttons that will in turn be a safer bet for greedy investors, having your creativity and vision constrained.


One direct result of the generic and bland anime that is being produced, if the creators dont have any creative incentive and dont like what they are doing, the result is generic garbage that current otaku love, ah well, the paying customer is always right yea? Crying or Very sad You cannot fight back bad taste and you must have a family to sustain.

Glad that your project was successfully funded and you and many other creators in the same predicament as you, can work and flesh out your constrained creativity a little.
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animefanworried



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:38 pm Reply with quote
kabochaone wrote:

You cannot deny the trends that have taken over later night anime, niche anime, whatever you want to call it, this is what needs to be reduced to bearable levels.

Rubbish. Leading trends have always existed. You could see almost nothing but mecha in the 80s, kids' series were prevalent before that. Every era is defined by a leading trend and other genres who gravitate around it. Every era is also defined by old school nostalgia fans b*tching about the good old days when they knew how to make anime.

kabochaone wrote:
I love denial mode, when is us fans that tell you moe has ruined anime, not economically, NO, of course not, its amazing really for profits, but in terms of creativity, freedom, variety, variety in the sense I don't need to see fanserive or moe at all for a series to sell and succeed, he is right saying creatores have to put up with moe character o moefy characters, then we suck, we are blind, we have no idea what we are talking about sure...

Art is a subjective and varied thing, unfortunately resulting in almost everyone having an opinion on it regardless of their actual knowledge of its inner workings.

kabochaone wrote:
So yeah you are right walw6pK4Alo, its not moe or fanservice that are actually bad (it was never actually, too much of it is), is that todays fans like garbage, they are given garbage and follow in with the latest moe/fanservice of the season exactly like sheep. can't help it if todays otaku have such bad taste, these are the current times, can't be helped.

Refer to my earlier point on Nostalgia blinded fans. You know the lucky ones who happen to have been watching anime in the only decade when it was actually good. Each generation is lucky like that, they're born just in time to miss out on the old crap, but just in time to enjoy the only good decade of anime, amazing really.

kabochaone wrote:
Indeed there is lot more variety now since 2012, its not as bad and unbearable as 2007-2012, moe in its maximum overexposure...

When I had lots of free time, I actually looked at the entries of every TV series produced in the mid 2000s to today period through ANN's encyclopedia. Since you obviously possess little knowledge on what series are actually produced over time, please do so as well. You should find a variety of series of different genres and scopes.

kabochaone wrote:

...lots of fujoshi bait nowdays to counter male otaku!! SAIKOU DESU...

Blatant female pandering to replace blatant male pandering, glad you're encouraging progress for what you perceive as a stagnant industry.

kabochaone wrote:
I really feel for people like Hiroaki Yura, having to work on project you don't like, making changes against your wishes to meet the taste of Japanese otaku gluttons that will in turn be a safer bet for greedy investors, having your creativity and vision constrained.

Unlike in the good old days when anime was about "high class art" for its own sake with creators having complete control over their original works which had no relations whatsoever to marketing, trends or merchandising.

kabochaone wrote:
...refined tastes...

Indeed!?


Last edited by animefanworried on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Selipse



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 216
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:44 pm Reply with quote
Bah. Pretty much the only thing I consider actual "moe" anime nowadays are Manga Time Kirara Max adaptations.
Seriously, guys. What do you even think "moe" anime is? Out of the 36 shows airing this season, we have Locodol and Hanayamata.


Stuart Smith wrote:
Why is this bad, exactly? Take a look at the modern game industry, comic book industry, and geek TV industry, and tell me you actually want that for anime with a straight face. Those mediums essentially died once they hit mainstream status. Creativity evaporated at the sight of the mainstream, general audience dollar. Comic books now ape the mainstream movies, and the movies themselves are insultingly dumbed down. Video games now target the 10-21 male demographic with the same 3 types of games and anything else is shut down in pro-production. TV nerdom is pretty much defined by Big Bang Theory and trendy "geek" poster children like Wil Wheton and Felicia Day. I'd rather none of that happen to anime.


fudge the Big Bang Theory and I don't really know about the actual comics.
As for the gaming industry, I actually think it's been pretty fine lately. At least I thought that until I saw the whole stupid #GamerGate drama. Why the fudge is the media attacking their consumer base? It's also the result of all the feminist bullshit going on recently.
However, at least you can say "hey, I like video games" without anyone going apeshit.
I've been thinking about how there are those casual gamers that love to and are actually proud to say "I'm a nerd!". I hate those guys. However, lately, I've seen that the complete opposite is going on in the anime community. There are casuals who like to say shit like "animu is garbage" (they don't even say anime because then "they'd be weeaboos"), being way to self-deprecating and acting like it's all a joke because only losers actually watch anime, even though they go around spouting senpai memes and saying "kawaii desu" in an "ironic" way.
God, I hate that. But after looking at the #GamerGate incident, I think I do prefer this.
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Parse Error



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 590
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:56 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
"Moe" wasn't always a huge thing in the industry

Technically no, but in the looser sense it's normally used in, and especially when it's thrown around as a pejorative, it's just a newer term to describe things that have been a huge part of anime for over fifty years now.

animefanworried wrote:
You could see almost nothing but mecha in the 80s

Clearly you are just making a wild ass guess. The eighties had tons of ecchi romantic comedies as well, not to mention the magical girl/magical idol shows and everything else.
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kabochaone



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:00 am Reply with quote
@animefanworried

Yes, there is nostalgia for when anime and creators had creative drive to make a good plain fun anime like Kabocha wine or Dr Slump to more mentally challenging series like EVA.

Also when you have to look up series, dont worry I have in fact probably watched most memorable entries you can look up since the 60s to know, anyone can tell you that there has always been dominant trends, but there has never been in history such dominant trends like moe to infest in some form or another, even on series they dont quite fit at all and should not be any race it (again, becase for uppoed moe = feeling, has evolutioned to something visually and verbally intrusive), and trends till now have never been for bad or downgrade creativity, variety, worst.. constraint creators, I am telling you this, yes and also the creators themselves, there has been several that have had the balls to say it and few that have had the balls to make projects like this so then can worth their creativity a little without worrying about meeting todays otaku tastes which are by now clearly a : GIVE IT A REST; ITS ENOUGH.

For a fact I did not have to see a Gundam appear on Cats eye or Touch in the 80s for sure for it to be a sucess,or have other series needding singing heroine a la Macross - Minmay, you can be sure Minami at the end of the 80s did not need to mimic Minmay traits.

Also we did not need to see the physiological traits of the successful GITS movie or EVA in other series in the subsequent years for them to be a sucess, or magical girls in any number of anime, imagine a sailor moon girls in EVA to make it success and ride the sailor moon boom Smile

The taste of us fans back there was very diverse, we did not need countless sailor moon or eva series or countless mecha anime for them to sucess effectively denying the chance of other series to shine and worst effectively obstruct other fans some aniem their way too and conform any season with one or two series at most and feel utterly disappointed and have creators come and say they need more creative freedom, feel dissatisfied, etc, in fact all that freedom that had is what created some of the most iconic series which almost only the modern otaku dare question and compare with today anime and trends, probably in ignorance, as I doub they have watched anything prior to 2000s, but us what been forced heavily to their tasted today, not in a bearable or normal level.


And yea, fujoshi vs otaku SAIKOU DESU! A counterforce Laughing Yep, I am looking for that quality refined anime. Cant tell irony right, BUT whatever that can make a counter force to otaku gluttons.


Last edited by kabochaone on Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:13 am; edited 3 times in total
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animefanworried



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:00 am Reply with quote
I can't respond to half the above post without someone deciphering it for me. Re-reading is an acquired skill I guess. I'd normally be inclined to call it trolling, but the writing skills match the argument.

Whatever, anime was great back in the good old days, its all gone to hell today. You were right, how can I even dare raise my insolent voice against your superior refined tastes.

Parse Error wrote:
Clearly you are just making a wild ass guess. The eighties had tons of ecchi romantic comedies as well, not to mention the magical girl/magical idol shows and everything else.

True enough. I was hyperboling to make a point that mecha was very much the leading trend though, establishing a comparison to our current industry state.
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kabochaone



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 am Reply with quote
Parse Error wrote:
Clearly you are just making a wild ass guess. The eighties had tons of ecchi romantic comedies as well, not to mention the magical girl/magical idol shows and everything else.

True enough. I was hyperboling to make a point that mecha was very much the leading trend though, establishing a comparison to our current industry state.[/quote]

And you confessed ignorant comparsion is kindergarden level as clealry the situation is quite different, mecha anime was mecha anime, did not invade any other number of anime and there was plenty other trends dominating.

In short, the issue is fans of different eras, in the past fans had very diverse tastes, fans could enjoy Yamato, could enjoy Attack No.l 1, Ace wo nerae, comedy series like Dr. Slump, romatic-sports anime like Touch, shoujo anime like sailor moon, Gundam, Cast Eye with the opening selling a million copies, and also room for super physiological hits like Gits or EVA while making room for plenty other successful anime in a variety of genres and for all tastes.

Todays fans like MOE-FANSERVICE-MOE-FANSERVICE-FUJOSHI BAIT now as well, END OF STORY For current anime.
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Najimi72



Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:30 am Reply with quote
kabochaone wrote:
And you confessed ignorant comparsion is kindergarden level as clealry the situation is quite different, mecha anime was mecha anime, did not invade any other number of anime and there was plenty other trends dominating.

In short, the issue is fans of different eras, in the past fans had very diverse tastes, fans could enjoy Yamato, could enjoy Attack No.l 1, Ace wo nerae, comedy series like Dr. Slump, romatic-sports anime like Touch, shoujo anime like sailor moon, Gundam, Cast Eye with the opening selling a million copies, and also room for super physiological hits like Gits or EVA while making room for plenty other successful anime in a variety of genres and for all tastes.

Todays fans like MOE-FANSERVICE-MOE-FANSERVICE-FUJOSHI BAIT now as well, END OF STORY For current anime.


It's blatantly clear from your "comments" that you are trolling and trying to get a rise out of people (or you're just a condescending, ignorant snob who thinks that your tastes are better than everyone else's). Each post makes you look even more ignorant and foolish, so it is in your best interest to stop now.


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animefanworried



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:31 am Reply with quote
kabochaone wrote:
And you confessed ignorant comparsion is kindergarden level as clealry the situation is quite different, mecha anime was mecha anime, did not invade any other number of anime and there was plenty other trends dominating.

In short, the issue is fans of different eras, in the past fans had very diverse tastes, fans could enjoy Yamato, could enjoy Attack No.l 1, Ace wo nerae, comedy series like Dr. Slump, romatic-sports anime like Touch, shoujo anime like sailor moon, Gundam, Cast Eye with the opening selling a million copies, and also room for super physiological hits like Gits or EVA while making room for plenty other successful anime in a variety of genres and for all tastes.

Todays fans like MOE-FANSERVICE-MOE-FANSERVICE-FUJOSHI BAIT now as well, END OF STORY For current anime.

You really don't even pay attention to what comes out today do you? Just take a peek at the "New Anime" section above this very site. Please, for the sake of not sounding ignorant and... Nevermind! Just look it up anyway for future references.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9321
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:32 am Reply with quote
kabochaone wrote:
In short, the issue is fans of different eras, in the past fans had very diverse tastes, fans could enjoy Yamato, could enjoy Attack No.l 1, Ace wo nerae, comedy series like Dr. Slump, romatic-sports anime like Touch, shoujo anime like sailor moon, Gundam, Cast Eye with the opening selling a million copies, and also room for super physiological hits like Gits or EVA while making room for plenty other successful anime in a variety of genres and for all tastes.


You're taking anime from over 25 years and placing them into a small boat. And yeah, people in the early 70s had to watch Attack No. 1, Ashita no Joe, Ace no Nerae, Lupin, and Tiger Mask, there was barely any other anime on.
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