Forum - View topicYuki Yuna is a Hero (TV) (all seasons + movies).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Well, the way I look at it, I don't think the show is trying to tell us that Togo was acting out of "selfishness." You, or any other viewer is free to find whatever interpretation suits you best, but I feel pretty confident the show wanted us to sympathize with Togo even though what she was doing was wrong. For those of you who are really horny to make sure Togo gets punished, what do you think is a suitable punishment for almost destroying the remnant of humanity?
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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Obviously we were supposed to sympathise with her. But sympathy doesn't mean absolving some one entirely. It means giving them 10 years with a chance for parole versus 25 to life.
Any sort of punishment would have been fine. I listed a few earlier. What she's doing now is also fine. Anything other than "Well, I tried to kill everyone... Consequences? What are those? Time to live happily ever after with my waifu!" This isn't a black and white issue. You're making it sound like you either completely forgive her or you're some heartless a-hole. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3652 |
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No, I don't think Blood would throw a fit if Togo got some punishment, either. It's a thing that the folks in the world could reasonably do. But you folks seem downright furious that no one was making the girl suffer enough, and that the show is somehow a failure if it doesn't deliver horrible consequences to her. As if a society is truly unjust if it doesn't properly deliver the consequences to the girl they already unfairly laid terrible consequences on. THAT's what makes you a heartless a-hole.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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I don't see anyone demanding "horrible" consequences for her. Even if you take morality out of it, that she caused such a major incident but any responsibility she had regarding it is handwaved away is a narrative failing. It cheapens the meaning behind the suffering when it's all magically undone like that. Why do you think everyone hated the My-HiME ending back in the day? Shizuru raped Natsuki and killed a bunch of people but she gets off with a fake little "I'm sorry" and side materials suggest her and Natsuki actually get together later. Where's the justice in that?
Anyways, obviously the creators realized this and it's a good thing this season is addressing that issue. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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I think you're the only one who feels that specifically about My-Hime. I didn't like the ending because it meant that none of the emotional payload mattered. It's the same reason I didn't like the ending of the first season of this show, it cheapened the rest of the show's storytelling. But that's a completely different point than the absence of institutional punishment or justice. It's the "magically undone" part that makes it lame, not the fact that the characters' suffering level is incorrect. I wouldn't have found the ending of this show any better or more respectful of its emotional payload if it had concluded with "hey, everybody's better, but Togo's in jail."
By the way, reading your spoiler, that's even more reason for her to get off without consequences. spoiler[Apparently, Shinjuu only speaks in the language of Apocalypse, so pointing out the obvious ("hey, being crippled sucks") takes steps as extreme as hers, and the Taisha knows it.] |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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I'm not advocating for institutionalized punishment. I'm just using it as a parallel.
Like I suggested before maybe she loses her legs during the battle permanently. But she accepts that as the price she had to pay for what she did. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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The innocence of the populace is understandable, but the lack of blame for the organization and those involved is totally unrealistic. Even with the greater good in mind could the organisation not feel responsible? Even though they pretty much tried to destroy her, isolate her from peers, put her and few friends into mortal danger, where loss was incredibly likely, and more. This was not oops I made a mistake and forgot to mention life altering information. This was secretly make decisions to withhold information that would throw her life into the gates of hell, to be reduced to a undying corpse on a bed, after losing ability to move, feel, or memories of what should make you who you are. And what about the friends and family around her impacted by the choice, in the people they wanted to protect feeling responsible for the loss. Does a "I'm sorry" really solve that? Yeah, from a logical numbers game point Togo is certainly in the wrong. This actually reminds me of this sort of empathy test that has sort of interesting Psychological implications, the Trolley problem. 1. Example one is that a train is coming and is going to run over 5 people, or you can pull a switch and change the track so it would run over only 1 person. What would you do. 2. Example two is the same as above that a train is going to run over 5 people, but the difference now is that it might be stopped by personally throwing or pushing say a rotund person in the path, which there happens to be next to you. What do you do? By numbers alone it looks like there is no difference in the two problems, but a fairly large amount actually have an emotional difference, that the second one puts you as more personally responsible for causing a death than a detached switch. Along with say the implication that maybe you care less about someone because they are more rotund. I kind of feel about in conjunction of this series because it is like the case that they are throwing a specific type of person on the tracks and in a way that it is a compliant person (young and lied to). They weren't making choices to act knowing or fully understanding the risks because it was easier that way, and Togo's rampage was a fairly logical repercussion from those choices, of a young girl who might feel pain as being worse than death would act out that only her and the immediate ones around her were the ones to feel such pain. The general population being allowed to just stay blissfully unaware. It is not a case of her not doing anything wrong, but that those who would punish her are kind of responsible for how she acted. It was not like they were putting in work for her to be okay with dealing with the stress, in fact they decided on the current system because it would require less training and work for them. And what would even be the point for them to punish her, when she would be more useful in service, and now that she made it past her existential crisis. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Well said. If I'm going to be angry at anything in this show its the Shitjuu who - if Vaisaga is correct - already actually have the power to protect humanity from the Vertex but basically for shit and giggles demand that young girls be tortured to "pay" for that protection. Eff those guys. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Well, how exactly can you punish the organization that keeps what's left of the world running? Not like there's any one particular person they can fire. They're all just agents of the Shinjuu. Side story stuff: spoiler[They did beg Sonoko to stop Togo but she told them off, saying whatever happens is their own fault. Some people criticize Sonoko for being willing to let humanity die, but she knew Yuuna and co would stop Togo.] All I'd really want out of them is to realize their mistake and take steps to ensure they don't repeat that. And that's what happens. In KuMeYu spoiler[there's the Sentinel system, the weaker massed produced version of the Hero System. The girls chosen to be Sentinels are informed upfront about the truth of the world and their participation is voluntary (admittedly we don't know what actually happens to the girls who quit).] It's also important to remember that Yuuna and co are only the 3rd hero team ever. The trial and error period is still going on.
The current system is so what happened to Gin doesn't happen again.
No no, you misunderstand. Shinjuu's protection is limited to just the barrier. Just keeping that thing up, not to mention environmental stuff like atmosphere control and replenishing resources, takes up most of Shinjuu's powers. It has no means of fighting off Vertex itself, which is why one only needs to reach Shinjuu for it to be over. Since the beginning Heroes were necessary to actually fight the Vertex, and those heroes have always been pure maidens because that's how Shinto deities roll. Shinjuu does give power to the heroes but after the implementation of the Fairy system (which it only came up with in response to Taisha's prayers to prevent further hero deaths) the power load became too much. We see this in the WaSuYu portion of the anime: when they go Mankai the juukai corrodes. Mankai uses up a lot of Shinjuu's power so in compensation it takes something from the girls to reclaim some of that energy. Being non-human it doesn't really see a problem with this since the heroes won't die, get a nice power boost, and the hero suit compensates for any disabilities anyways. Togo's rebellion taught it that that wasn't the case. The Shinjuu doesn't exactly want to die either so it's in its best interests to keep the heroes happy. Even if it's only delaying the inevitable since the Shinjuu will run out of power eventually. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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That is not what folks are furious about, it was that there were no consequences for her actions. People died because of what she did, not to mention all that she attempted to do which was an even greater evil. Season One ended on the note of the "Power of Friendship". Which is just taking things to an absurd level. I'll have to watch these newer episodes, to see if they actually do have consequences for Togo. Who knows what the organization would do or even care about, but at the very least the rest of the magical girls should acknowledge what was done and what price the world paid for it. Some discussion on what they should do about Togo. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Did they? It's been awhile but I don't recall that last Vertex attack having any impact on the real world. People died at the end of WaSuYu (Fuu and Itsuki's parents among them) but not YuYuYu. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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That kind of fits exactly what I was saying that some organization have some responsibility for what happened, that punishing Togo would just as much warrant punishing members of their own team, while Togo has actually physically saved their world at times. The same as Togo there has to be some learning from the situation. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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I was never advocating that Taisha should punish Togo anyways. I'm talking more like some sort of personal loss/lasting scar. Instead it was "Togo, you tried to kill everyone... Good job! Here, have your legs back!"
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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After each incursion the magical girls fought off, there would be a news report in the background reporting on some sort of minor natural disaster. The implication being that if the magical girls did not fight the monsters off, things would have been a lot worse. Considering the sheer number of monsters Togo let through this time, when compared to the previous incursions, it would seem to indicate a massive natural disaster would be warranted. You are right though, nothing was spelled out or hinted at in the final episode of season one. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Yeah, but in YuYuYu era natural disasters occur due to corrosion caused by exposed Vertex cores. Weren't many of those in the final battle.
I'm sure if there was any significant sort of damage there'd be mention of it. |
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