Forum - View topicThe Fall 2014 Anime Preview Guide- CROSS ANGE
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Rederoin
 Posts: 1427 Location: Europa |
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You're free to leave the fandom, you won't be missed. |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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I don't know how you can say that when immediately after she is handcuffed to the table there is a 3 or so second close up shot of her ass wiggling back and forth, the same exact shot you'd see in "lighter" shows such as Queen's Blade or Godannar. Also all the clothes ripping is done at dynamic angles with lots of motion which instills a bit of excitement into the product. How anyone can really see no intention to titillate in those scenes is beyond me. Sure, I'm not saying that one is getting off to it, but there is a world of difference in how films such as Salo depict horrific scenes with a bunch of wide shots and almost documentarian-like approach and what happens here. Especially when that scene is punctuated with the sexy harem pan. Yikes. I'm also a little appalled to see the words "karmic justice" used in Theron's write-up. What??? Justice implies some sense restoration of equity or fairness. How is the torture in any way "karmic justice" for Ange being ignorant. Her involvement in the Norma baby scene was ultimately inconsequential and would not have changed the outcome at all. Also, if this is a revenge-fantasy show, then that applies she was wronged and would indeed be "justified" in seeking her retribution. You can't have it both ways. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Can we just take a minute here and observe the contrast between Blood's post and pretty much every other post made in this thread in defense of the show? Because that might just be the first and only actual decent rebuttal. Please note how Blood is actually addressing the issue at hand: How he didn't see the scene as being played for titillation. Of course, I disagree adamantly, but okay. He's at least making a case for his point of view. Now contrast that to the rest of the apologists in this thread and their ridiculous check list of bullshit: We've got the moron who screams about "objectivity". We've the guy who cries cultural relativism. The guy who cries censorship. The "you're a Social Justice/White Knight" dismissal. The meaningless "that's not actually rape" technicality. The "you're a hypocrite because this other thing gets a pass" non-defense. "Who cares it's just a cartoon" guy. "Unprofessional" guy. "Intent doesn't exist" guy. "But you can't definitively PROVE it so we should just ignore it" guy. "No no YOU'RE the real sexists" guy. And even the horrifying, we're staring into the abyss now folks, "She deserved it" guy. It's just astounding. Fourteen [expletive] pages and Blood's is possibly the first to actually just tackle the issue head on. At best up till now we've gotten a bunch of people dishonestly pretending it's about the show having rape in it at all rather than how it presents that rape despite repeated statements to the contrary. That's literally as close to legitimate discussion of the issue as we've gotten until now. What if, instead of all that though, you all just did what Blood is doing? Just actually talk about the criticism the reviews have raised. Then, we might actually be able to have a discussion about it and you guys wouldn't come off as a swarm of reactionary and disingenuous apologists.
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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It is karmic justice. From what I understand, that child will have the same fate as Ange, or maybe because it is a little child, it will simply be culled (killed), or perhaps there is an even worse fate for the child, since it is young enough to be programmed. Ignorance is not an excuse. Everyone already knows the bond between a mother and child. Yes, her society programmed her to accept as normal, this view of Normas. Still it is fitting as karmic justice. Just because I think it is fitting as karmic justice, doesn't mean I agree that is also an acceptable practice, or that it should be done. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23743 |
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@ krelyan - based on your post, I went back and watched the scene for the third time. Clearly when I watched the second time, I didn't back up far enough because I missed seeing again Ange getting the front of her shift sliced open which conveniently gives us a panty flash and I also missed the ass squirmage. Obviously neither of those made much of an impression on me the first time around, and as I say, the second time, I didn't back up far enough to refresh my memory.
Yeah, there is no question that those are fanservicey elements. I can't defend them. The only thing I can tell you is that for me, personally, the weight of that scene in its entirety is to convince me (as if I needed it) that Ange is in a really, really bad place and she's got a deep pit to climb out. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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From my part, that was never my intention. I commented on a specific quote and tried to show how people are misreading things, making faulty conclusions about how other people might think of it and that leads to the talking past each other. I didn't post my opinion of the show in detail, because I did not wish to be a part of that shit-throwing contest (and still got side-tracked). Of course, if I'm supposed to be this
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TnKtRk
Posts: 183 |
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wah...
why can't every show be like Space Dandy... wah...
Thank name of personal deity goes here they're not. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Literally no one has said anything remotely close to this. At least respond to something someone actually said. |
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Gattix
Posts: 36 |
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Yes, that’s part of what I was getting at. It’s a common trope in these kinds of stories, no matter what gender the main character has. And no matter how primitive it is: It works. (At least for me) And since I really like strong female protagonists, I also have to like this, it’s really just a primitive trope to glorify the main character more in the end. Well, unless they have a gary stu harem master take the spotlight in the end, and that’s why I get salty because of that, why this does make a difference. If it’s said trope, great, I love that kind of stuff, I have a deep respect for characters that have to suffer a lot or even choose to die heroically (and I find it sad that so few female characters get the honour of doing this, of being this selfless hero), if it isn’t and some dude butts in, well, not so great. That would, in my eyes, make the much debated scene misogynist in retrospect, since her suffering then really was just for laughs, instead of for making her rise from the depths of hell more spectacular.
You do realize that that’s basically the same that everyone in this thread who dared to claim that this wasn’t “rape” said, right? We don’t say that because we’re misogynist or because we want to downplay the scene, or because we find such treatment to be normal, we say that because we didn’t get any real sexual vibes from that scene. Well, I did, but as I said only in the camera work, and you can’t rape someone with your eyes. No one said the scene wasn’t brutal, what everyone doubted was the sexuality of it. (And at least in my country that’s necessary for it to be considered rape, if there’s nothing sexual about it, it just isn’t rape) |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Both of these people have been banned for personal attacks. This is a good example of "how not to talk to one another here". |
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Fedora-san
 Posts: 464 |
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I'm really amazed this scene caused such a kerfuffle. The short 10 second scene at the end of the episode didn't seem like such a big deal to me or come off really sexual at all. Unless you find the idea of a woman nude or in her underwear is automatically sexual. To a country that partake in communal bathing, seeing nudity or underwear shots probably isn't as big of a deal compared to a more puritan country where all instances of nudity sexual by default. To me, that scene wasn't really sexual unless you find the idea of your doctor giving you a prostate exam is sexual by nature.
Part of the problem is people become much more sensitive when something happens to a female character. It's basic human nature. It's why most horror films will star females, because they're easier to evoke feelings of empathy for than males. So in that regard, when people see bad things happen to a female character, it gets a lot more criticism than if it happened to a male. If a male character is tortured, mutilated, raped, and everything else, like in Berserk, it's just part of the Hero's Journey for him to become stronger and rise in the ranks and not many people are likely to complain. But for a female, it'll generally provoke more controversy if something bad happens to them. I must wonder if this would cause just as much of a outrage if Ange was a man. I would assume no, given past comparisons. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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That explains a hell of a lot. Here's the general definition of rape in the United States, according to the Uniform Crime Reports as of 2012 (here's a wiki link on the UCR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Crime_Reports) “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” That's probably the definition most of the reviewers are operating under, hence why they define the scene as a rape in their reviews. |
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Hellsoldier
 Posts: 753 Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol |
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I see the word misogyny beingused out of context here. Misogyny means hatred of women.
Now, all fanservice aside (and I would like to see more military equipment being used in mecha anime for a change), there was a scene that can be best described as rape. Was it edgy and even disturbing for some? Yes. Was it brutal? Yes. Did the show condone the act? No. Not as far as anyone has heard. Thus, accusation of hatred towards women is debunked. In real life history, people that went to concentration camps or any similar were stripped from their human rights. In the case of women, it would usually get worse. Could they have practiced self-censorship and indicate what happened in a less explicit way? Yes. But by no means is the representation of the lack of human rights in a racist/segregationist facility a display of sexism. As I said though, I would have done a couple of things differently. |
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Gattix
Posts: 36 |
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Well, apparently according to some definitions of the word, any prostate exam that is done without consent is rape, even if you’re, say, comatose. Let’s just say one can agree with such a definition… or not.
It’s really backwards human nature and part of what real feminism fights. It’s the idea that women are inherently weak and need protection. The damsel in distress. The useless girl that needs to rely on others. It’s one face of sexism that is sadly ignored way too often. Yes you are right, most people probably wouldn’t mind at all if this happened to a guy, but throw a fit if it’s a woman. This is sexism, period, not mental gymnastics. |
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msgundam2
 Posts: 271 Location: Indiana USA |
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This anime is a defiantly a must watch. Anything that makes jesuotaku rant is always great.
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