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EP. REVIEW: Psycho-Pass 2


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Jacut



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Paris, France
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:05 pm Reply with quote
Lack of objectivity is the basic premise by which ANN should stop giving reviews writership to fangirls. This review was clearly worse than the series was.
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JacobC
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Jacut wrote:
Lack of objectivity is the basic premise by which ANN should stop giving reviews writership to fangirls. This review was clearly worse than the series was.


Someone citing "objectivity" for a reason a review isn't good, proving that they have no idea what the word means and just want their own opinions parroted back to them in every review they read? Take a shot!
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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:42 pm Reply with quote
Jacut wrote:
Lack of objectivity is the basic premise by which ANN should stop giving reviews writership to fangirls. This review was clearly worse than the series was.


What about this review lacked objectivity? Was it how Hope very clearly demonstrated the complete narrative and conceptual disconnect with the first season or how she pointed out the frequent use of plot contrivances? And how was it fangirlish? Was it how she talked about the themes of the show and the ideology behind them? While I myself can be critical of this site's reviews, I not only found this one to be excellent, but I also find Hope to be among the best writers the site has to offer.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11340
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:03 pm Reply with quote
You know, I don't even know what that means. Was he trying to say the review was more negative than the series deserved or that because Hope's a "fangirl" it wasn't negative enough, and therefore worse than the series? With this coming after a near meltdown in the SAO thread because "reviewers are too negative" and should like the series they review, it's difficult to know what to make of it, other than "she didn't agree with me" one way or another.

I'm just glad this is over. I think the only person I liked in this, besides the professor of course, was the new guy who's always late. Oh, and the sweet hacker who's pining for Akane. Kamui kept reminding me of the Laughing Man, and it seems either ill-advised or shots fired that his first name was Kirito. Smile
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:10 am Reply with quote
I'm starting to feel like I don't understand the sibyl system and the themes or sci-fi elements of Psycho-Pass after this second season. spoiler[What was and is their goal--were the two concepts actually ever that different? What exactly made Kamui a "collective entity"? Was it multiple personality disorder or did the parts of other people truly fuse into his brain? How DOES the sibyl system judge a collective entity and what exact criteria does it use to do so? It certainly doesn't use the same system that judges the ASL in the series... right? And Mommy Togane... it was just her being judged, right? Why didn't it judge her until it had decided to judge collective entities? I thought she was only one brain at the time...]
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Daerian



Joined: 04 Dec 2011
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:40 am Reply with quote
There is no such thing as "objective" review.
Review can try to be close to "objective" in talking about things like narrative/story mistakes, bad animation or cacophony instead of music - but in the end, every review is opinion of someone and by definition cannot be objective.

About rule 2b - I think system was now able to measure previously criminally asymptotic brains inside itself exactly because it had such psychopathic types in system, that they could have been now measured - and with loss of them system instantly lost ability to measure them... kinda going against it stated goal of perfection. But oh well, this season internal logic has more problems than this one.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:48 am Reply with quote
@Hope "SIBYL VS SYBIL SHOWDOWN". I love it.
Have a great christmas and i liked you anime top 5 the best.
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varmintx



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1199
Location: Covington, KY
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:55 am Reply with quote
Jacut wrote:
Lack of objectivity is the basic premise by which ANN should stop giving reviews writership to fangirls. This review was clearly worse than the series was.
I think this is the review you want, or maybe this.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:14 am Reply with quote
ManusDomini wrote a post on MAL giving a pretty convincing explanation of the Collective Psycho-Pass. It's a great read for those of you who don't understand the concept.

Quote:
In the past (and here's where you're right) a psycho-pass was an individual judgment. We were judged based on what we did or would do as specific persons. We alone are responsible for what actions we have performed, are performing, or will perform--at least that's the philosophy behind the individual psycho-pass. We can only be judged because we are responsible. If we're being coerced, judgment wouldn't make sense, right? Or at least be morally acceptable, right? The idea isn't that they are morally responsible for who they are, of course. That's why even people in highly emotional states can be judged. Rather, the responsibility rests on some idea of conversability (sp?): we can be judged for our actions if we can recognize our actions as wrong, or can at least discuss the moral values of our actions. (It goes far deeper than this, but that's a rough idea.) So, people in high emotional states aren't killed, but they are judged by Sibyl; people who go out of their way to plan actions in advance and carry them out are judged more severely, and people who deliberate, act, and are conversible are judged even more severely (enforcers tend to fit this bill). Those who generally are NOT conversible (Makishima from S1) tend to be "criminally asymptomatic". They don't feel any remorse or hesitation in committing the crimes, and so they are brought in to make Sibyl itself more conversible about those crimes (so it can judge them appropriately). (Togane recognizes everything he does is a horrible crime, but desires to be evil; he is technically conversible, and this is reflected in his color.)

Kamui (and Sibyl itself), however, present very different problems to this system. See, Kamui isn't an individual responsible for his actions (and neither is Sibyl--let's bundle them together for now). His actions are those of a collective entity. Any action Kamui performs is deliberated on and acted on as 180 people. His conversability is reliant on accounting for all 180 individuals that make up Kamui being included in the dialogue. An individual psycho-pass cannot account for this. A collective psycho-pass, however, can. It can say that each member is responsible for the group; that the group's actions are sufficient to judge the member's. We can judge Kamui under a collective psycho-pass, because we are now judging each individual not as an individual, but as a member of the collective. So, that's why every individual can have a psycho-pass reading of 0 and still be judged. The judgment is no longer based on the level of your psycho-pass, but the psycho-pass of the collective to which you belong.

The best example of this I can think of is how we judge nations, especially in times of war. See, we don't think that any individual American is responsible for the torture report, for example; however, America as a nation is certainly responsible for torture (we carried it out, didn't we?), and that's why we are disavowing this as part of who we are. For if who we are is a nation that tortures, we can all be fairly judged as members of this nation--even if we don't like torture ourselves, and disavow it avidly.

As another example, the Iran sanctions for its (alleged) nuclear program are a judgment of Iran as a whole. We don't think that the average Iranian is responsible; we might think his 'psycho-pass" is clear--is 0. But that's not what's important under this collective judgment. What matters is that Iran is a collective entity: it includes not just Khamenei and the government, but the citizens, too. And when it acts, there is no way to punish the government without punishing also the citizens. That is, if we want to adequately judge nations, we cannot just judge the individuals in charge; we need to judge *everybody*, even if it's not fair to the less influential citizens (who have no actual participation in the policies we're judging the nation for).

Going back to Psycho-Pass, why this now matters (and why it's now a large problem), is that we're now treating collectives like individuals. So, Kamui looks like a person, but he isn't (exactly) one person. He is a group acting as one. Because of this, we're treating the members of collectives as parts of a person. That is, because we're now treating collectives as persons, we can cast judgment on people who are not related to the actual crimes. What's really problematic, then, is that not only can Sibyl be judged, but the city itself can be judged for Sibyl's actions. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sibyl, if you are part of this larger collective. Furthermore (and more problematically for Sibyl), the people can now judge Sibyl. They can determine whether this perfect system is right or wrong; whether to trust its judgment. Sibyl is no longer the decider of all things; the power is being removed from Sibyl and being entrusted back to the people. Sibyl was supposed to reign sovereign. Its word was to be unquestionable. Now, however, Sibyl is no loner sovereign; it is no longer above the judgment of society.


Interestingly enough, I think the season was entirely for the sake of introducing this concept for the movie. One can even say that Kamui was a contrived villain that was created for the sole purpose of forcing the Sybil System to update itself.
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OtakunX



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:18 am Reply with quote
i personally believe that the reviewer here has missed over key elements that explain the reasoning for this whole season. Whether it's by choice or ignorance I'm not sure but it seems that way to me. I found the show to be decent, not great but also not worth an F rating. Over my skims of these reviews it seem to me that the reviewer just chose not to talk about certain points to make the show make better sense or try to put elements into the show that were never discussed but assumed within the narrative. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have no interest in trying to change someone elses opinion, just expressing my own.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:50 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
One can even say that Kamui was a contrived villain that was created for the sole purpose of forcing the Sybil System to update itself.


Of course he was contrived. How can a piece of skin converse with the rest of Kamui's body in any fashion, let alone intelligently? How can a part of a spleen have its own psycho pass? It isn't sentient (let alone sapient) for crying out loud.

All one needs to do is to think about Kamui's situation for literally two seconds and it becomes clear that the writers of this season don't just fail screenwriting, they also fail basic biology.
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CoreSignal



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
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Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:06 am Reply with quote
The last line of the review is great: "I need it to wash my brain out" Smile

The movie can't come soon enough.

Anyway, the showdown withspoiler[ Kamui, Sybil, and Tougane] was so anticlimatic. Kamui basically spoiler[ gets a 300 CC reading on the one of the brains, and apparantly, he's satisfied Sybil is guilty and can die happy now, which Tougane happily helps him with at the end]. Also, point 1 in the review basically explains how the premise of Sybil's "perfection" in Season 2 contradicts the Sybil's justification in Season 1. Sybil was never thought of as a perfect system in season 1 so I have no idea why Ubukata decided questioning its perfection should be a central plot point.

One big gripe with PP2 is the complete waste of the returning cast. Yayoi, Ginoza, and Shion were pretty much a waste. After episode 5, all three characters probably had a total of 20 lines of dialogue combined and even less screen time. Not to mention the death of spoiler[Aoyanagi],a potientally interesting returning character. Heck, even the new enforcer, Hinakawa, barely has anything to his character.

My other big gripe, all the detective/procedural elements are essentially gone. The first season was never a super realistic portrayal of detective work, but at least you saw Akane and co. doing some actual stuff like asking witnesses, examining crime scenes, following leads, etc. This season, most of the inspectors/enforcers run to the crime scene with guns blazing (see episode 4).

@Actar I have two issues with the collective Psycho-Pass concept from the MAL post.

1) Sybil is judging "members of collectives as parts of a person" and that it's problematic because "we can cast judgement on people not related to the actual crimes", which is a perfectly valid point. Here's my issue: if that's the case, then why does Kamui try convince Sybil to pass judgements on a collective instead of an individual? Kamui's entire point is well.....pointless because it runs into the problems mentioned above. It's essentially trading one problem for another.

2)"the power is being removed from Sibyl and being entrusted back to the people." A couple issues here. Giving the power to the people is one thing, whether they actually start a revolution is another. Remember despite the spoiler[city-wide riots] at the end of season 1, everything went back to normal. Except for Akane, it seems like nobody else has any interest in overthrowing Sybil. And again, I don't know why the MAL poster is calling Sybil "perfect" again. It was already established in season 1 that Sybil is flawed.

I also think that the character of Kamui was pretty much setting up the collective concept for the movie. I do think there could be an interesting way to explore the collective vs. individual concept, but PP2 did not do a good job of it. Maybe Urobuchi can do a better one.
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qberr



Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:56 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
I think the season was entirely for the sake of introducing this concept for the movie
heh heh heh
spoiler[NOPE,shambala barely has single scans http://yomogi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/asaloon/1418547927/851-951
season2 has absolutely no contribution to the movie, Sugo and Sho are barely in it, it's just Akane's bizarre adventures in shambala floats
she barely interacts with Kogami
Gino (once he pops in long with div1 during the climax) has a much better interaction it seems]


you can just pretend s2 never happened
yes, it was just a mass hallucination
granny passed out peacefully with both her ears, Aoyanagi was transferred to the ministry of whatever as per the 10years promotion, Sugo and Gino bonded from being the only enforcers that are at least slightly manlier than Yayoi, and that's about it


Last edited by qberr on Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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SquadmemberRitsu



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1391
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:04 am Reply with quote
Jacut wrote:
Lack of objectivity is the basic premise by which ANN should stop giving reviews writership to fangirls. This review was clearly worse than the series was.
I'm not the biggest fan of ANN's writers either but I'm gonna call bullshit on this.

If someone likes a series and can explain in depth why they like it, or vice versa, then I see no issue with letting them review it. 'Fanboy/girl' is just a lazy buzzword used by people, such as yourself in this instance, who want to talk down to people for the simple fact that they have an opposing viewpoint as opposed to making actual criticism of said viewpoint. If Hope wrote a review that was in line with your own views, I doubt you'd react the same way no matter how poorly written it was.

While I don't honestly believe all opinions are of equal worth (I have no reason to take your opinion seriously for example) there is literally no way for a review to be completely objective. All reviews are opinion based.
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JacobC
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:03 am Reply with quote
qberr wrote:
heh heh heh
spoiler[NOPE,shambala barely has single scans http://yomogi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/asaloon/1418547927/851-951
season2 has absolutely no contribution to the movie, Sugo and Sho are barely in it, it's just Akane's bizarre adventures in shambala floats
she barely interacts with Kogami
Gino (once he pops in long with div1 during the climax) has a much better interaction it seems]



I'll take that "barely." Interested to see what they would have to say to one another when they finally meet again. Very Happy
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