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EP. REVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works


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_Archer_



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:03 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]

spoiler[ He makes the claim that "girls shouldn't fight" not out of some kind of misogynist/chivalric ideal, but because he can't stand the idea of anyone fighting for him since he himself wants to be the hero who saves everyone and doesn't want anyone getting hurt in the process, hence why he jumps in front of Berserker after seeing Saber getting injured. This is proven in the VN when Rin calls him out on this very fact and points it out this revelation. Granted it's still a character flaw he has, though not because he's sexist, but because of the extremes he goes through to uphold his ideology.]

As far as the review goes, I'm happy UBW is getting good reception, but all this review really feels like it tells me is that "it gets rid of the stuff I don't like about the VN and F/Z so it's really good!" and I'm surprised that there was no comments about the character design given how odd the noses all are. I'm also a bit surprised that Gabriella praised Takahiro Miura since the KnK movie he directed is generally regarded as the worst one, and him being the director is one of the primary fears I see the fanbase generally have about the adaptation. .
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Videogamep



Joined: 10 Jun 2014
Posts: 564
Location: CA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Veniamin wrote:
Quote:
Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel.


So, you didn't actually read the VN and forget that Shirou and every other girl fought on equal terms especially with Saber after she called out how stupid his actions were?


I can't say either way about the VN since I've only seen parts of it, but why would she say that if she hadn't read it? At least think things through before you accuse people of lying.
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I3uster



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:07 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
By the way, Nasu's statements about "trying to do better and write stronger female characters" are widely known, but do consider there might be a reason he had to make those statements in the first place.


That's the point though. He doesn't have to make those statements at all.

He works in a market, male targeted eroge, whose market doesn't give a single shit about a female character having any sort of agency. All that matters is appeal. Male targeted eroge are the bottom of the nerd barrel, these are your pillow loving 2D girlfriend only freaks that are highly misogynist and read shit like that to get emotional satisfaction they can never have in real life.

And in this market where such a statement is an actual negative, he's pretty much the only one to speak out like that, and he only can because his name is already big.

repeat: you are harpooning your only ally in this game for not going far enough do you understand how frustrating it is for bystanders when people then keep parroting your uninformed opinion
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:21 pm Reply with quote
It's probably a really bad idea to wiki or google anything about this show. I think the exposition in episode 2 should cover everything newbies need to know. If you saw F/Z, it already spoiled a number of things, but there's at least one massive spoiler that people new to the Stay Night portion probably don't want to be spoiled on, and it wouldn't be hard to accidentally stumble upon.
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Stall_19



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 78
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Veniamin wrote:
Quote:
Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel.


So, you didn't actually read the VN and forget that Shirou and every other girl fought on equal terms especially with Saber after she called out how stupid his actions were?


I like the visual novel too despite it's flaws but it's impossible to deny there is some serious sexism in it especially in the Fate route and pretty much everything ero-related. Even if you say Shirou got past his "Girls shouldn't fight" phase, nothing excuses parts like this

Hell it seems like Nasu himself is even somewhat aware of the sexism in his works. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/101-Type-Moon-Fanfic-Idea-Thread?p=1172383&viewfull=1#post1172383

Anyways they've done a great job so and I'm pretty psyched about the adaptation so far and hope they can keep this quality up.

Edit: I see most of this post was said by someone else. I'm a slow typer.


Last edited by Stall_19 on Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JacobC
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3707
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:23 pm Reply with quote
I3uster wrote:
JesuOtaku wrote:
By the way, Nasu's statements about "trying to do better and write stronger female characters" are widely known, but do consider there might be a reason he had to make those statements in the first place.


That's the point though. He doesn't have to make those statements at all.

He works in a market, male targeted eroge, whose market doesn't give a single shit about a female character having any sort of agency. All that matters is appeal. Male targeted eroge are the bottom of the nerd barrel, these are your pillow loving 2D girlfriend only freaks that are highly misogynist and read shit like that to get emotional satisfaction they can never have in real life.


...?

Um. You do know that Nasu/Type-Moon is an enormous cross-media creation giant at this point, right? Those characters are massively marketable and hugely iconic, which is why there are Fate spinoffs into the stratosphere. They're not some little eroge company that has to make pandering trash in order to succeed and they haven't been for a very long time now if they ever were. They're huge.

So he totally does have to make statements like those, if he feels he has to. I assume those are his true feelings, he certainly doesn't have to answer to anybody and he hasn't in the past. (Might also explain his friend Urobuchi's odd relative candor for the anime world.) He's basically attempting to answer for something he wrote a long time ago that he feels iffy on now. The author of Sword Art Online made similar statements about his work when it got big. He didn't "have to," but he did because he'd grown as a person and a writer since then and felt awkward about the quality of his part work in some way and didn't want people judging him for things he'd made when he was a different person to some degree. It's a fair thing to say.
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jroa



Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:24 pm Reply with quote
The best adaptations are often those that know how to edit and transform the original content into something more suitable for TV presentation while still keeping the core of the story intact, and at this point it seems like Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works has managed to accomplish this. I think that's wonderful.

In that respect, I think it's disappointing that some of the VN fans have aggressively come out against the reviewer. I'm not asking you to agree with her, but why can't we focus on what brings us together, which is a quality anime series, rather than what splits us apart? I don't think this means that anyone should shut up about their disagreements, nor should the reviewer censor her opinions, but let's act like independent and respectful adults rather than children fighting in a schoolyard.

For the record, I have only read through a little more than third of the original Fate/Stay Night visual novel. I mostly stopped reading on a whim, shortly after the second route started, and then moved on to other priorities. I didn't think it was terrible, there were some compelling moments that were fairly memorable, but I also didn't fall in love with the material nor with all of its execution.

Calling it a diamond surrounded by dirt, from my point of view, is fair enough and can be taken as a compliment. That's also part of why I am looking forward to the rest of this anime, since it will mostly cover new content (UBW) and the staff seems to be doing their best to make it accessible to more people. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.


Last edited by jroa on Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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I3uster



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:24 pm Reply with quote
people keep bringing up a mistranslation to prove their point
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JR-1



Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Posts: 37
Location: Southeast Asia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:26 pm Reply with quote
I am so glad I've read the visual novel long before I've read Fate/Zero, otherwise I will be as disappointed as the reviewer. Also a factor is I read it when I was much younger and my tolerance for bad writing (to elaborate, not BAD bad, but the overly purply, excessively repetitive writing common for VNs) and misogyny are much lower.

I understand the concept behind Shirou's character and it's admitedly interesting, but the execution... oh man.

IMO the heart of the problem is because it's an eroge. You can argue that the sex scenes are tacked on and can be removed without much harm to the narrative (and they do for the console version), but even in that case, it's still a 'choose-your-girl' scenario, where the player expects a girl will fall in love with the protagonist in a route, and the narrative is spinned to justify this (in fact, that becomes the core of the narrative), arguably by taking most of the strength and agency of that particular girl.

I think the more egregious example is from Tsukihime: (Arcueid/Ciel's route spoilers. Sorry if I remember it wrong, it's been a long time since I read it) spoiler[ In Arcueid's route you downright have the opportunity to RAPE Arcueid, one of the strongest character in the Nasuverse, thanks to her losing most of the power she have (though that will give you a bad end later). But in Ciel's route she returns to full power and you fight her later in the story because Shiki decides that he loves Ciel more than Arcueid. Now, who decides who Shiki fall in loves with? The player facilitated by the writer of course.]
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konqueror



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:31 pm Reply with quote
There's a mistake here, because every TMfan loves Emiya Shirou. Only the ones who watched the 2006 anime and didn't read the VN hate Shirou.

Also, the reason why you didn't like the VN it because its translation is awful. See this picture for reference.

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ViscontPenRoth



Joined: 10 Sep 2013
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:33 pm Reply with quote
I3uster wrote:
people keep bringing up a mistranslation to prove their point

Care to give a "more accurate version" for Fate/Stay Night?
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sainta



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 989
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:33 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]


But enough of that, let's have him spoiler[conquer her heart and mind in the same ridiculous way it would happen in any other eroge regardless. Who's getting a blowjob from King Arthur? YOU'RE getting a BJ from King Arthur, Shirou!]

Anyway, the point is that opinions on the visual novel are just that: opinions. People can debate whether the game is well or poorly written, misogynist or not, but they're personal arguments, and the reviewer is perfectly justified in stating whichever one she stands behind.

Reason I bring it up is to head off any "Well maybe you didn't really read it" stuff, because that gets annoying in Type-Moon threads real fast. Errbuddy entitled to their own opinion here.


Just share this

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1454
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:34 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:


Here's an informed opinion about that scene. Doesn't mean it's instantly justified, but let's not post it without any context.
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WestCoastAnime



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Gabbo writes a glowing review, and you guys fixate on one line. Seriously?
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I3uster



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Oh don't get me wrong, the VN writing is downright amateurish in a lot of places. The infodumps have been pointed out, but it bears repeating that people that manage to actually get through the first 3 days need to be lauded as the heroes they are, because literally nothing actually interesting happens until the last second...which is then cut away for more infodumping, in case you weren't quite clear on everything yet.

I just take issue when the selling point of the VN, the main character and his character development, gets the beating stick so hard, when it's the most compelling thing in there. And it's not even based on the merit of the work itself, or its execution, or anything like that, it's based on arguing the main character's sexism.

I see why his sexism can be a turn off for reviewers and viewers, but the debate about him being sexist or not has drowned out the debate about his execution basically completely. And that's dumb because his struggle is the substance of the entire VN. His ideals are reflected in Saber, Rin, Archer, hell Kiritsugu's entire moral compass is based off a potential Shirou in a single bad end of the HF route.

The sexism can't be ignored, but overemphasizing F/SN as the misogyny milestone and comparing it to Easton-Ellis (srsly) is just silly when the entire catalog of the weekly reviews has better targets for this kind of stuff.
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