Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works
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Stall_19
 Posts: 78 |
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I think that scene will come off a lot better without the narration. |
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Muphrid
 Posts: 35 |
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Uh...never shown or implied that (spoiler) did anything sexual to (spoiler)? Let me refresh your memory.
Maybe never explicitly said, but all this talk about purity, about violation--it reads pretty sexual to me.
I feel it's used in a light manner because it's not explored with sufficient depth. That example from UBW above, for instance, is a case in which I'd say such undertones didn't add anything. In this case case from HF, spoiler[does it add anything to make it that Sakura is sexually abused versus merely physically abused? It enables some sex. It pushes Shinji and Zouken from merely "evil" to irredeemably evil. Perhaps that was intended; I'm not sure it's necessarily a good thing for a variety of reasons, though those have to do with character design and thematic considerations. HF doesn't make a statement about sexual violence and abuse. It merely uses those issues to push the villains across the moral event horizon. In contrast, I don't have an issue with the general use of child abuse here because that ties into the larger themes of Fate/stay night: about children following the paths of their parents or elders, despite the damage that does to them as people.] I do take it as a general premise that sexual violence and abuse should be used very sparingly if a work aims to minimize the damaging effects of examining such themes on victims. Why? Because it is a very sensitive issue, one that causes great stress and trauma for people in the real world, and media that uses or exploits these issues should do so cautiously. It helps if such media does so with a specific statement about such violence and the effects of it. I don't think Fate/stay night does any such thing. |
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I3uster
Posts: 45 |
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Coercion by circumstance if you want (not a real word for this unless there are real life mana transfer rituals that im not aware of) but not really through a person. In Rin's scene in particular HE is the one that keeps asking if everything's fine all the time and clearly not too comfortable with how it plays out (except, yknow, as it goes on, because this is a porn game and you can't just leave everyone hanging like that or whatever) Please don't take me getting passionate about this as me denying that this work is not sexist or anything (sabers entire character arc...), but I just feel the targets chosen are most of the time not the best. I personally (im a dude so idk how much weight this has) think it's not a particularly worse offender than your average anime, which is why I can't understand the reaction. The more you go into pandering genres like harem the more directly worse examples you get. (or even shoujo which loves its rape apologia) |
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Chuee
Posts: 31 |
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So why don't you just go out and say that you're uncomfortable with rape being used in general. Her being raped has a lot to do with the family practices of the Makiri and what Zouken's plan is. Not that any of that really matters since it's rape and rape can't be used at all because it's too bad.
Oh right, so people can claim that spoiler[ Caster raped Saber] despite there being nothing said that implies that ever happened in the game. |
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Trotsky vs Mechatrotsky
Posts: 4 |
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In the end, though, this isn't a very interesting comment, since finding something 'gross' is no more a statement than of one's feelings. Far more interesting, and the point you should actually be making, is how this titillation plays into the overall construction of the novel. If you watched Transformers: Age of Extinction, you may note that the main character's underaged daughter has T&A shots aplomb, but a certain scene quite clearly positions observing her in this way, as sexual, as exceedingly creepy. And yet, to use your method of observation, one would only note the form and not the substance behind it. 'Dodgy' is meaningless. What does it mean, proper, for the novel qua novel, that the novel is dodgy? |
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Chuee
Posts: 31 |
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Go on and tell us why you think Saber's arc is sexist as someone who only likes her as some strong, powerful king who can kick some ass! |
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I3uster
Posts: 45 |
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It equates living a happy life with having a romance with the boy taking all the agency in the relationship as he turns her stone heart into chocolate pudding.
Her arc is about her enjoying life as a person rather than a symbol, but the way that arc plays out is kinda ehhhhh does work for me though because i like these shitty games, what am i doing with my life |
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Muphrid
Posts: 35 |
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Yeah, you know, just keep in mind that almost everyone here likes Fate/stay night and is here because they want to talk about it. I personally think this topic can be discussed as dispassionately as one would discuss matters of pacing, or inconsistent character development. |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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There's no context that can make that okay, but it's interesting that you're assuming that people critiquing this didn't play the VN and don't have the context for that scene, just because they're presenting it alone to make a point about "there's lots of other sexism in FSN other than the stuff people were 'rebutting' in this thread". Anyway, that post you linked to is a minefield of typical anime-fan apologism for sexism. Saying "but-but the cultural context!" doesn't make a VN or anime not-sexist because guess what? Those "cultural norms" can be sexist themselves! When you're talking about "the nail that sticks out will be hammered down" and the way in which a girl being a "nail that sticks out" is simply being a woman who doesn't care about traditional femininity and is opinionated and boisterous, that "cultural norm" is sexist and treating it as "well, just something we have to acknowledge" furthers that sexism and should be criticized. A lot of the rest of the post just seems to act like Shirou isn't sexist because he volunteers for some domestic tasks instead of making women do all of them. But that's the lowest possible bar for this sort of thing, and doesn't say anything about his overall view of women. The "if you have ANY respect for women WHATSOEVER you can't be sexist!" idea is what feminists are making fun of when they talk about men demanding "feminist cookies". You don't get to own the label simply for achieving basic human decency, especially if you believe and espouse all sorts of other messed-up ideas. By the way, I am familiar with the "Fate" route of the VN (and with Fate/Zero), have watched Gabriella play it so I know she is as well, and I largely share her opinions on it. Honestly, I think a lot of how Shirou relates to women and how it's presented in the game is still pretty misogynistic, and shouldn't be given a pass, either, but I suspect the reasons for that would be beyond the level of the discussion in this thread. Last edited by SailorTralfamadore on Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chuee
Posts: 31 |
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Why? because he wants to protect people? Keep in mind misogyny means the hatred of women here. |
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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Since this was brought up and it concerns the only (female) character arc and route resolution I am directly familiar with...I disagree with Saber's entire character arc being called sexist. Parts of the process leading up to it might be, but not all, especially considering the ultimate conclusion spoiler[is the exact opposite of what Shirou personally wants for her. Does she stay with him forever or become a housewife instead of a warrior? No, not at all. She accepts her past choices and abandons the self-denying notion of wanting to change how she became King in the first place. Instead, she goes back to die at the end of her "natural" lifetime.] Shirou and his ideals did play a role in that realization, but it wasn't about what he wanted for her, nor was it related to what he thinks women should do. Last edited by jroa on Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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I3uster
Posts: 45 |
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I'd still be interested to hear them if you're willing. |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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See, these are the kinds of condescending, mansplaining responses that make women feel like we can't really be fully honest here about how we respond to this media. This is exactly what I mean by "it's probably too much for this thread". |
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I3uster
Posts: 45 |
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It's just that the way you frame it makes it sound like you want to avoid discussion. And taking potshots at people discussing the anime.
in combination not that great |
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Chuee
Posts: 31 |
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[quote="jroa"]
spoiler[ Shirou only tells Saber that she should use the grail for her own purpose instead of using it to save her country. Nothing about her staying with him or becoming a housewife. In fact, Shirou had no regrets with her dying which implies he was fine with her choice. ] |
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