Forum - View topic
EP. REVIEW: Lord Marksman and Vanadis [2014-10-20]


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kinghumanity



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:23 pm Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
I don't get why everyone makes a big deal about fanservice. We saw some boobs. Oh my god my eyes exploded. Get over it. I'm guessing none of you ever saw Game of Thrones, or anything else by HBO?

If an American company was making this series Tigre would have been shown waking up in the beds of the War Maidens by episode 3 max (with a classic L-shaped bedsheet conveniently showing his abs and covering her chest).

In fact, almost all of the "fan servicey" moments were quite important for the plot to move forward, and not just for teenage boys to masturbate to. The maid's almost-rape showed her peril and the cruelty and barbarity of medieval lords towards subjects. Tigre running into Mila naked showed her difference in personality from Ellen (and future other War Maidens). Since they had to cram 5 books into 13 episodes, they couldn't afford to waste time just to jiggle boobs.

I would have preferred they choose to use the time to show character and relationship development (e.g. Tigre and Ellen go out on a date and bring back a teddy bear for Lim), but that is a minor complaint, and all of you are really making a big deal out of nothing.

You are missing the main point behind the 'anti-fanservice' ideas. It's not the fanservice itself, but the way it has shifted importance towards itself with time.
Before, it was yet another device to get a funny situation in the episode. Now, a show isn't complete without showing fanservice.

It's not what's so wrong about it, but how we seem to forget that these anime are supposed to be telling a story, and fanservice will never be anything more than cheap situations to make smth more comercial (and no, I'm not going hipster on your or anything, it's simply how it is as of now).
And they are not important for the plot, not really. We didn't need the maid scene to know what a douche the young lord was (although I don't really consider that scene fanservice o.o), and the shower ones... Elen already made it clear how Vanadis react, I don't think we needed it again, and certainly not with the clichéd "I gave him a reward" situation.


I could make the identical argument about Game of Thrones. Almost nothing would change for the plot of all the characters were clothed.

Ellen blushed when Tigre saw her naked. Mila didn't. I think having Tigre run into women naked is the author's way of developing and explaining their personalities and characteristics.

I'm pretty sure that Ellen made up a bunch of lines about how Vanadis are supposed to react because she didn't mind him seeing her naked in the first place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kazziyan



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 390
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:26 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
kazziyan wrote:

I was more or less speaking from a general POV that for such shows, a reviewer who can appreciate that kind of art (as silly as it sounds) does the review rather than someone who can't stand it. But fair enough and thanks for the response.


Sure, I agree. In this case though, no one on staff volunteered for the show or had any interest in it, so I took it. Poor thing, no one else wanted it. Razz Good thing I'm enjoying it!


Haha. I'll be sure to keep reading these since it's from you then. I really appreciate you commenting. I also gave it a read and it was a good one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kinghumanity



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:48 pm Reply with quote
By the way:

Quote:
So did Ludmila know "Urs" was Tigre and sabotage herself knowingly, or is she just falling into a dumb tsundere stereotype?


I believe Mila subconsciously wanted to give herself an excuse for losing and backing out, but she didn't know who Urs was. It's much easier (and more believable) to open your heart to a stranger, than your arch rival's subordinate who also happen to just saw you naked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 8432
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:05 am Reply with quote
For me, one of the biggest draws visually is the eyes in this. Even in their chibi OVAs, there is an almost feral intensity in everyone's eyes that I could stare at all day. Very Happy

Silly thing to get excited about, I know, but I've been getting kind of tired of so many series using concentric circles and multi-colored half-cuts and slipped contact lenses and clover pupils and what have you, to try to be different in how they do the eyes, but they've really nailed it in this one. And it helps distract from the pimple-shine, which is an artistic choice I have never and will never understand. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Niflheimr



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:38 am Reply with quote
Quote:
On top of that, when Tiger leads Elen's army back to the keep, it is more heavily fortified than when he first saw it. So did Ludmila know "Urs" was Tigre and sabotage herself knowingly, or is she just falling into a dumb tsundere stereotype?

At that time she didn’t know who he was, though naturally that will change. The defences around this fortress are designed around Elens Cleave the Wind, to make it useless since it has a limited range, and it was made by Milas mother. That the rear was left without much defences is because over two generations of arguing and fighting between LeitMertiz and Olmutz the mountain itself was considered a natural barrier by both sides. I mean it took a woodsman like Tigre days with finding nothing until he ran into Mila. That Mila and Tigre met made Mila aware that her fortress could potentially be attack from the rear and erected some makeshift defences during the night.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gistradagis



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:56 am Reply with quote
kinghumanity wrote:
Gistradagis wrote:
You are missing the main point behind the 'anti-fanservice' ideas. It's not the fanservice itself, but the way it has shifted importance towards itself with time.
Before, it was yet another device to get a funny situation in the episode. Now, a show isn't complete without showing fanservice.

It's not what's so wrong about it, but how we seem to forget that these anime are supposed to be telling a story, and fanservice will never be anything more than cheap situations to make smth more comercial (and no, I'm not going hipster on your or anything, it's simply how it is as of now).
And they are not important for the plot, not really. We didn't need the maid scene to know what a douche the young lord was (although I don't really consider that scene fanservice o.o), and the shower ones... Elen already made it clear how Vanadis react, I don't think we needed it again, and certainly not with the clichéd "I gave him a reward" situation.


I could make the identical argument about Game of Thrones. Almost nothing would change for the plot of all the characters were clothed.

Ellen blushed when Tigre saw her naked. Mila didn't. I think having Tigre run into women naked is the author's way of developing and explaining their personalities and characteristics.

I'm pretty sure that Ellen made up a bunch of lines about how Vanadis are supposed to react because she didn't mind him seeing her naked in the first place.

The nudeness in Game of Thrones is part of the medieval setting. The 'fanservice' (if you want to call it that) DOES have an objective in the serie, which is show that GoT is not going to hold back and try to be mild or not harsh. For example, prostitutes were a big thing in that time, and so the show has lots of prostitutes, etc.

The problem with anime fanservice is that 99% of the times, it doesn't serve a purpose except make people drool at the characters. There are no mixed intentions, fanservice in anime is 100% comercial interest and, if at least they put effort in it, it wouldn't be so horrible, but most anime just randomly throw it in.

If you want to know the main problem, it's that we have gotten so used to it know, that we don't say "why are they putting fanservice in the anime" anymore. Now we say "at least there's not too much fanservice and it's not too intrusive with the plot." It's a bit sad, actually.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kinghumanity



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:27 pm Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Gistradagis wrote:
You are missing the main point behind the 'anti-fanservice' ideas. It's not the fanservice itself, but the way it has shifted importance towards itself with time.
Before, it was yet another device to get a funny situation in the episode. Now, a show isn't complete without showing fanservice.

It's not what's so wrong about it, but how we seem to forget that these anime are supposed to be telling a story, and fanservice will never be anything more than cheap situations to make smth more comercial (and no, I'm not going hipster on your or anything, it's simply how it is as of now).
And they are not important for the plot, not really. We didn't need the maid scene to know what a douche the young lord was (although I don't really consider that scene fanservice o.o), and the shower ones... Elen already made it clear how Vanadis react, I don't think we needed it again, and certainly not with the clichéd "I gave him a reward" situation.


I could make the identical argument about Game of Thrones. Almost nothing would change for the plot of all the characters were clothed.

Ellen blushed when Tigre saw her naked. Mila didn't. I think having Tigre run into women naked is the author's way of developing and explaining their personalities and characteristics.

I'm pretty sure that Ellen made up a bunch of lines about how Vanadis are supposed to react because she didn't mind him seeing her naked in the first place.

The nudeness in Game of Thrones is part of the medieval setting. The 'fanservice' (if you want to call it that) DOES have an objective in the serie, which is show that GoT is not going to hold back and try to be mild or not harsh. For example, prostitutes were a big thing in that time, and so the show has lots of prostitutes, etc.

The problem with anime fanservice is that 99% of the times, it doesn't serve a purpose except make people drool at the characters. There are no mixed intentions, fanservice in anime is 100% comercial interest and, if at least they put effort in it, it wouldn't be so horrible, but most anime just randomly throw it in.

If you want to know the main problem, it's that we have gotten so used to it know, that we don't say "why are they putting fanservice in the anime" anymore. Now we say "at least there's not too much fanservice and it's not too intrusive with the plot." It's a bit sad, actually.


Not really. For a show tagged ecchi, the fanservice is actually quite tame. Were you expecting face veils and burkas? I hope not. How every war maiden handles being seen naked is the author's way of explaining their personalities.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gistradagis



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:32 pm Reply with quote
kinghumanity wrote:
Not really. For a show tagged ecchi, the fanservice is actually quite tame. Were you expecting face veils and burkas? I hope not. How every war maiden handles being seen naked is the author's way of explaining their personalities.

Don't do the overreacting thing, please. Veils and burkas? For pointing out the painful truth that fanservice does not serve a real purpose in 99% of the cases?
You can even check out your own example. The author shows the Vanadis differences in personality through their reactions to being seen nude? Has he not heard of personality and/or character development?

I'm obviously being sarcastic, but that's one of the main problems with fanservice. They are no longer "an extra". They now take the place of development and plot and, in the worst cases, break completely the flow of an anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kinghumanity



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:39 pm Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Not really. For a show tagged ecchi, the fanservice is actually quite tame. Were you expecting face veils and burkas? I hope not. How every war maiden handles being seen naked is the author's way of explaining their personalities.

Don't do the overreacting thing, please. Veils and burkas? For pointing out the painful truth that fanservice does not serve a real purpose in 99% of the cases?
You can even check out your own example. The author shows the Vanadis differences in personality through their reactions to being seen nude? Has he not heard of personality and/or character development?

I'm obviously being sarcastic, but that's one of the main problems with fanservice. They are no longer "an extra". They now take the place of development and plot and, in the worst cases, break completely the flow of an anime.


It's probably because of the anime adaptation rushing through and skipping bits left and right. In the light novel fanservice might be 5%, but it looks like 30% in the anime. 24 episodes would have been so much better.

They did the best they could with the resources they had. The chess pieces were creative and easy to follow, and the opening and ending sequence, as well as sound effects, were excellent. (Those don't cost a lot of money.) If Lord Marksman had half of the budget of Unlimited Blade Works I guarantee it would be one of the hottest series this fall.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gistradagis



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:44 pm Reply with quote
kinghumanity wrote:
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Not really. For a show tagged ecchi, the fanservice is actually quite tame. Were you expecting face veils and burkas? I hope not. How every war maiden handles being seen naked is the author's way of explaining their personalities.

Don't do the overreacting thing, please. Veils and burkas? For pointing out the painful truth that fanservice does not serve a real purpose in 99% of the cases?
You can even check out your own example. The author shows the Vanadis differences in personality through their reactions to being seen nude? Has he not heard of personality and/or character development?

I'm obviously being sarcastic, but that's one of the main problems with fanservice. They are no longer "an extra". They now take the place of development and plot and, in the worst cases, break completely the flow of an anime.


It's probably because of the anime adaptation rushing through and skipping bits left and right. In the light novel fanservice might be 5%, but it looks like 30% in the anime. 24 episodes would have been so much better.

They did the best they could with the resources they had. The chess pieces were creative and easy to follow, and the opening and ending sequence, as well as sound effects, were excellent. If Lord Marksman had half of the budget of Unlimited Blade Works I guarantee it would be one of the hottest series this fall.

I know, I'm not criticising the original work. I followed the manga for some time, long ago, and remember more or less how it goes.
My critique is about fanservice, which exists mainly in anime. In manga, you do find it, but almost exclusively in the ecchi genre, where you already expect to find such a thing.
It's sad because, like you pointed out with the %, studios now put so much emphasis into fanservice to be commercial, that it sometimes breaks the anime, or dumbs down characters a lot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kinghumanity



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:38 pm Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Gistradagis wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Not really. For a show tagged ecchi, the fanservice is actually quite tame. Were you expecting face veils and burkas? I hope not. How every war maiden handles being seen naked is the author's way of explaining their personalities.

Don't do the overreacting thing, please. Veils and burkas? For pointing out the painful truth that fanservice does not serve a real purpose in 99% of the cases?
You can even check out your own example. The author shows the Vanadis differences in personality through their reactions to being seen nude? Has he not heard of personality and/or character development?

I'm obviously being sarcastic, but that's one of the main problems with fanservice. They are no longer "an extra". They now take the place of development and plot and, in the worst cases, break completely the flow of an anime.


It's probably because of the anime adaptation rushing through and skipping bits left and right. In the light novel fanservice might be 5%, but it looks like 30% in the anime. 24 episodes would have been so much better.

They did the best they could with the resources they had. The chess pieces were creative and easy to follow, and the opening and ending sequence, as well as sound effects, were excellent. If Lord Marksman had half of the budget of Unlimited Blade Works I guarantee it would be one of the hottest series this fall.

I know, I'm not criticising the original work. I followed the manga for some time, long ago, and remember more or less how it goes.
My critique is about fanservice, which exists mainly in anime. In manga, you do find it, but almost exclusively in the ecchi genre, where you already expect to find such a thing.
It's sad because, like you pointed out with the %, studios now put so much emphasis into fanservice to be commercial, that it sometimes breaks the anime, or dumbs down characters a lot.


I prefer the subtle and baked-in style of anime "fanservice" than the in-your-face style of (insert name of Hollywood actress here) strutting around topless.

At least Lord Marksman's fanservice is more plot relevant than the lesbian scene in Black Swan or the sex scene in the 300 sequel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gistradagis



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:47 am Reply with quote
kinghumanity wrote:
I prefer the subtle and baked-in style of anime "fanservice" than the in-your-face style of (insert name of Hollywood actress here) strutting around topless.

At least Lord Marksman's fanservice is more plot relevant than the lesbian scene in Black Swan or the sex scene in the 300 sequel.

How is the fanservice subtle? o.o
One of the main problems is that anime fanservice is everything but subtle. It's incredibly disruptive and, here's the difference between hollywood material "fanservice" and anime's: Japan has not learnt how to separate nudity from being commercial. Fanservice in anime has only one objective, making the anime more appealing in a basic and raw manner to their audience. It's a cheap tool to make fans obsess over a character and make sure it's a solid sale.

Let's not lie to ourselves, anime's fanservice serves no purpose. Not at all. As I said in another post, everything that you claim is done through fanservice, could be done through character development without the need to treating the spectators like teenagers with a level of hormones over 9000. I'm in the Vanadis anime for what it has to offer. Plot, characters, fights, etc. I don't want nonsensical situations that allow us to see hwo different Vanadis react to being seen nude. I don't need Elen's boobs jigglign around while fighting Roland.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 907
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:51 am Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:

Let's not lie to ourselves, anime's fanservice serves no purpose. Not at all. As I said in another post, everything that you claim is done through fanservice, could be done through character development without the need to treating the spectators like teenagers with a level of hormones over 9000. I'm in the Vanadis anime for what it has to offer. Plot, characters, fights, etc. I don't want nonsensical situations that allow us to see hwo different Vanadis react to being seen nude. I don't need Elen's boobs jigglign around while fighting Roland.


This is a Late Night anime based on a Light Novel aimed to a older audience (in some other Light Novels the fanservice is even more heavy) .
Like most of the Late Night animes of course there will be fanservice.
Thats what the target audience will expect, Plot, characters, fights, etc and Fanservice.

Been male or female fanservice, most, if not all Late Night shows will have fanservice.
If someone don't like it is difficult to find a Late night show without fanservice.
Don't mater how much complain there are, fanservice is part of the reason the target audience watch this shows.
There may be more or less fanservice, but it always be present in this shows.

If someone don't like fanservice there are always the mainstream shonen shows that don't have much fanservice.

In Madan no Ou to Vanadis the fanservice is light, compared with other shows, and most of the time is important for the plot.
The reaction the Vanadis show to been seen naked is important to show the personality of each Vanadis.


Last edited by Jonny Mendes on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:14 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gistradagis



Joined: 03 Nov 2014
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:02 am Reply with quote
Jonny Mendes wrote:
Gistradagis wrote:

Let's not lie to ourselves, anime's fanservice serves no purpose. Not at all. As I said in another post, everything that you claim is done through fanservice, could be done through character development without the need to treating the spectators like teenagers with a level of hormones over 9000. I'm in the Vanadis anime for what it has to offer. Plot, characters, fights, etc. I don't want nonsensical situations that allow us to see hwo different Vanadis react to being seen nude. I don't need Elen's boobs jigglign around while fighting Roland.


This is a Late Night anime based on a Light Novel aimed to a older audience (in some other Light Novels the fanservice is even more heavy) .
Like most of the Late Night animes of course there will be fanservice.
Thats what this audience will expect.
Been male fanservice or female fanservice most, if not all Late Night shows will have fanservice.
If someone don't like fanservice is dificult to find a Late night show without fanservice.
Don't mather how much complain there are, the fanservice is part of the reason the target audience watch this shows.

If someone don't like fanservice there are always the mainstream shonen shows that don't have much fanservice.

In Madan no Ou to Vanadis the reaction the Vanadis show to been seen naked is very important to show the personality of each Vanadis.

I think you are confusing why late night shows are screened at late night... it's simply because, for one reason or another, they are not acceptable as all-age. That usually means they are for a mature audience, be it because they are gore-ish, have a heavy political component, or things like that. It's not difficult at all to find late night shows without fanservice. If anything, most fanservice-based anime air during the day because, as I said before, they are aimed at teenagers bursting with hormones who will love any sort of fanservice.
You make the opposite comparison of "then you have the mainstream shonen without much fanservice". If anything, it's the opposite. The mainstream anime are the ones more full of fanservice.

And yes, fanservice is part of why some people watch these shows. And that is so, so sad. It basically means that part of its popularity is based not on the quality of the series, but on how many boners do the girls in the anime raise among the audience.

I recomend that you read this thread, because it's a great explanation of the whole point I'm trying to make.
http://anifilereviews.com/2014/08/28/editorial-why-fanservice-is-more-of-a-disservice/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jonny Mendes



Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 907
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:39 am Reply with quote
Gistradagis wrote:

I think you are confusing why late night shows are screened at late night... it's simply because, for one reason or another, they are not acceptable as all-age. That usually means they are for a mature audience, be it because they are gore-ish, have a heavy political component, or things like that. It's not difficult at all to find late night shows without fanservice. If anything, most fanservice-based anime air during the day because, as I said before, they are aimed at teenagers bursting with hormones who will love any sort of fanservice.
You make the opposite comparison of "then you have the mainstream shonen without much fanservice". If anything, it's the opposite. The mainstream anime are the ones more full of fanservice.

And yes, fanservice is part of why some people watch these shows. And that is so, so sad. It basically means that part of its popularity is based not on the quality of the series, but on how many boners do the girls in the anime raise among the audience.

I recomend that you read this thread, because it's a great explanation of the whole point I'm trying to make.
http://anifilereviews.com/2014/08/28/editorial-why-fanservice-is-more-of-a-disservice/


Late night shows are screened at late night not only because of the reason you post but also because this shows are used as advertising for the LN, mangas and DVD/BD, and this is the television time slot cheaper for the producers to air this shows.
This shows are made for Otakus to buy the LN, Mangas, BD, figurines, etc.

Sadly that's the reason in most Late night shows don't have some parts of development and scenes that are part of the original work.
If someone want to know more they have to go buy the LN or manga.
In that sense they include most fanservice scenes of the novels that will attract the target audience. Is like in advertising there are always beautiful woman in swimsuits and muscular men without shirt.

Mainstream shonen is in daytime time schedule and have more light funservice. Maybe i have this opinion because I don't watch much except Naruto, Inazuma Eleven, Yu-Gi-Oh! and don't see much funservice there compared with Late night shows.

Let me say that i not saying that is good to have fanservice all over the place. To much of something is never good.
I only saying that i understand the reasons why is used in this kind of shows.


In Madan no Ou to Vanadis is a example how a show can have not much fanservice and that fanservice is used in the characterization of the Vanadis.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group