Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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I don't even want to think what kind of discourse would have developed inside the fandom if the para-mail pilots had worn Senketsu-like suits and the same kind of framing of Kill la Kill was used.
As for remembering Cross Ange down the road. This is one of those series that will remain in the collective consciousness if for no other reason the memorable characters. Specifically Ange and Embryo. The mecha are also quite distinct and models are going on sale later this year. So no this show isn't going to be forgotten. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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Ok, I'll speak directly. The bit that got my goat was:
That's a pretty nasty attack on people who like this show. When you start saying things like "far too disgusting to describe in detail", you are smearing with a pretty nasty brush. Ok, it doesn't name me (or anybody else), but it is, if you like, a straw-man. Now, looking back on my own post, I did respond in kind, with a broad stereotype of my own - which I probably shouldn't have done (responding to ad hominem with ad hominem is never a good idea, satisfying though it feels at the moment you push "submit"). At the very least, the words "professionally outraged campus radical" were possibly pushing a bit beyond the bounds of jroa's post (though is it worse to be called-by-proxy a campus radical or a pervert?). But as I say before, if you want civility, then fine. But if you want a situation where it's ok to throw mud at people who like the show and not ok for them to say anything in return, then I'm out of here. And screenshot-trolling is irritating. Sankaku Complex are masters of it - their posts on Yurikuma Arashi at some points this season have been a textbook example in ignoring context, eg: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2015/03/12/yuri-kuma-arashi-bears-yuri-suspense/ (Link NSFW due to sidebar adverts - like anybody needed telling that about Sankaku). And believe me, I could easily imagine how you could subject Cross Ange to similar treatment from the opposite direction. Ange and Embryo are a gift that keeps on giving in that respect - almost everything they say is going to be offensive to somebody (occasionally including me). Oh, ok, Superdickery was basically screenshot trolling and made me laugh. But that's the exception!
Yeah, that too.
Oh Cross Ange isn't being forgotten in a hurry. The reasons you list are good for Japan. Outside Japan, it's just been so damned controversial. |
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Mecha Odyssey
 Posts: 38 Location: Brampton, Ontario |
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I for one, am one of those people eagerly waiting for when Bandai starts pushing out the model kits. The Para/Ragna-mails and Ryuu-Shin-Ki will be welcomed with my batallions of Gundams, Valkyries and other assorted mecha models/toys. To my surprise this is one aspect of the show not many people are talking about, since it was the sole reason why I started whatching this show to begin with: the mecha. Vilkiss resembling Strike Freedom (and later on colour changing like Impulse) and Enryugo (Salamandinay's unit) resembling Infinite Justice and Epyon, and Hysterica (Embryo's unit) I get strong Unicorn Gundam unit-2 Banshee/ Gundam Astray Amatsu Mina vibes from. Plus the fact that they were variable robots like the Valkyries of Macross were/are major plus points for me to follow this show. I only later learned that it is the same director from SEED thus explaining the obvious similarities of those units. Concept wise, I find the design of those two are similar to the units from the White Knight Chronicles PS3 game, Wizel the White Knight and Larvayne the Dragon Knight. The one thing I really hope they explain is Vilkiss' Gurren Lagann-esque willpower regeneration ability.
I do have to agree with this assessment as I have felt the same thing. I agree with keeping things civil, but a discussion needs to go both ways. It has been alluded that people who like this show like it due to sexually perverted or fetish related reasons. Now I'm sure there are people watching it for those reasons, I'm sure most animes, even non-fanservice ones do have that group of people in their fanbase. But to imply that that is the only reason one would be watching Cross Ange is kind of rude. Now I realize Cross Ange did not do near as good of job mixing comedy, mecha action, fanservice, and drama as let's say: Full Metal Panic or Martian Successor Nadesico, but there are still elements of this show that deserve credit.
This statement is not clear to me. If you are a fan of the show, then you appreciate it in some way big or small. To say the vocal fans are the only ones who appreciate the show unlike other the other fans doesn't make sense. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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In terms of visual design, the show is a "Greatest Hits" run-through of Sunrise history. You've noted a few of the obvious ones, but Aura is a very obvious copy of My-Hime's Kagutsuchi and the styling of team-Embryo's Ragna Mails would appear to be based on the Valkyrie suits from My-Otome. The Empire of Mitsurugi is also heavily styled after My-Otome's Windbloom. The ruined cityscapes of the DRAGON world owe more than a touch to similar locations in The Girl Who Leapt Through Space and Victory Gundam. Plus the music is straight from the Ar Tonelico composer. Not Sunrise, but you can't really get a higher recommendation than that. Over in Aldnoah-land, it might just be me, but the Tharsis looks a hell of a lot like a Qubeley and seems to get similar fight-choreography. 
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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Depends on how you want to take it. What I meant was both to show my lack of respect for the series itself as well as to turn your argument around in light of my disagreement. Part of your point was that the director could be making a critical statement against otaku and their fetishes. I believe that, on the contrary, the show easily allows plenty of otaku to enjoy those fetishes and sends problematic messages about gender relations that they will eat up. My evaluation of those fetishes and the questionable messages associated with them is not positive at all, so I have no reason to be kind in my description of the contents of the series. Does this mean I think all fans of the show are automatically creepy? No, probably not. But I do think the show is friendly to those who seek creepy pleasures. In my opinion, you would most likely be wrong by assuming that none of such people are to be found among the target audience of this production, or that they would be scared off because of what happens to Embryo. Therefore, the fact is I have never argued that any of the individual forum posters belong to this category. I was also not bilndly endorsing screenshot trolling, but simply refering to the optional use of screenshots in order to illustrate the kind of content involved and wny some people, included myself, find it to be problematic. Adding context will, more often than not, make it worse rather than better. That is my opinion about this. I think it's too disgusting to go into the explicit details, but sometimes a critical essay would be more compelling with visual aids.
That is based on taking for granted that the models are going to sell at above average rather than average or below average levels. Which is premature at best. I remember some folks were saying something similar about Valvrave just because the release dates for some of the models continued past the end of the broadcast. How memorable the characters are is also highly subjective, but I wouldn't be suprised if the fans consider them to be. As for the controversy, that might well have a life of its own outside of the actual contents of the show. But as a brand, I don't see much of a future for Cross Ange. If I'm wrong, you can always celebrate later. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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Bored of most of this discussion now. Just want to pick one thing up.
I don't want a brand. I want the show to finish with a good conclusion and then end. I don't want a sequel. I don't particularly want OVAs or a movie. I want it to run, end well and be done.
The best stories know when to stop. The idea that everything must have some sort of sequel is an absurd one. One of the reasons I watch so much anime and so little live-action TV is that some anime, at least, do actually end rather than fishing for another season. That's what gets you the X-Files, which has a start, a middle, more middle, still more middle, yet more middle, another chunk of middle and then a whole vast expense more middle stretching into the distance long beyond the point where anybody stops caring. Did it ever have an end? If it did, I don't know anybody who watched it. It's what gets you a Battlestar Galactica which is at least one season longer than it should have been, which bleeds out tension and interest as it bogs down in overly drawn-out mysticism. Ok, they did rescue that one and pull off a decent end, but I was close to dropping it by the time it did. And at the end of the day, when people get upset about review scores, the point I always come back to is - review scores (and forum reception) cannot change the fact that the show exists. A lot of my personal favorite shows never got (direct) sequels and are not widely remembered today - My-Hime, Simoun, Infinite Ryvius and so on. One thing they all have in common? They all wrapped up their plots in a single (2-cour) series. If more shows would aim to do that, then the constant fretting about sequels and review scores etc wouldn't matter quite so much. And yes, I know how commercially difficult that is. But it looks like Cross Ange is going to do it (fingers crossed). |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I have not seen anyone say that the cavity search or rape scene at the beginning of the series was hot. They were violating and distressing with Angeline being broken, and Zola being a peek at how broken and messed up everyone is there. Jill's part even works for us to go back and look at again once we realise that her backstory as a princess is not all that different, and her part was possibly out of self loathing. Ange really though against common tropes like not showing any embarrassment when forced to wear cut up clothes, the embarrassment usually the fetish than clothes actually torn up. She was not at all kind in being forced into situations where a guy lands in her crotch, I was not a fan of the situation happening, but I did like that she did things like tie him up. Ange really managed fight back against fetish situations, the biggest risk though has been from the villain, that we the audience are truly meant to hate. His actions gave been done to try and break her into someone she is not, like ramping up pleasure until she had no choice but to masturbate. But rather than being an enjoyable fetish scene, it was truly violating as we saw her trying to fight against it. First episode was also very strong in being distressing of mother and daughters being separated, which became a recurring theme when we saw reunions with Hilda with hers, compared to Vivian (Mii) with hers. Another example of what I have found as interesting plots through the series. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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Well, the final episode pretty much straight-out tells us that Embryo is the ultimate hikikomori who can't talk to girls. They're not even trying to be subtle about it at this point.
I've posted at greater length over in the non-ep-review thread, but I liked the ending. My only complaints is that I'd have liked more time on epilogue. 2-cour shows really should give themselves more than 5 minutes for that. As a rule of thumb, I'd say that a quarter-episode per cour seems about right (Blood+ and FMA:Brotherhood being examples of very long shows that take the time to do it right). Edit: I just checked and Ange actually uses the word "hikikomori". So no "pretty much" about it. |
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Selipse
Posts: 216 |
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And it is once again made obvious that Embryo's a reflection of otaku. A very specific kind of otaku, as this line made me realize:
"Why her? There's plenty of other women in the real world!" It was just missing Embryo calling Tusk a "riajuu". Why would Tusk, a "normalfag", be dirtying a 2D girl, though? Well, that's because it's not an attack on anime otaku. It's idol otaku! Ange's comments later also reflect Embryo being some kind of creepy stalker. A hikikomori before he found his saviour. His waifu. And to anyone that might think I'm crazy and just putting this series on a pedestal for these analyses: I'm not. I know this isn't even the main point of the series. Opposite to Yuri Kuma Arashi (which I also love, by the way) this series is not trying to send a grand message. It's not trying to change or challenge the industry. However, that doesn't negate these comments. Cross Ange's purpose first and foremost is to entertain, but they can still add some commentary. The series still plays up mostly straight, while adding some twists, akin to Saekano (another one I really like). And that's perfectly fine. It was a great fun show and a great ending (although, yes, I would've like some more epilogue). Cafe Ange! |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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Tripadvisor reviews for "Cafe Ange"
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Mecha Odyssey
Posts: 38 Location: Brampton, Ontario |
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From the group photo though, it looks like spoiler[Ange is the manager/owner and Momoka would be head waitress.] |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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I know, I know, but I couldn't resist.
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Hameyadea
 Posts: 3679 |
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The scene where they explained how Tusk survived his attempted suicide-bombing was quite impressive... if there was such a scene
They left that question up in the air. |
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Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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This show, I have no idea about how I completely feel about it.
First the elephant in the room, the supposedly objectionable scene. I don't care anymore, the show will throw in sexual assault all it wants and this one was better framed with more distant shots and shots of the face. My main issue is just the Dress Break style clothes disintegration that seems more in place with High School DxD than Cross Ange. As for my personal review of it, I can't like it but my hate has subsided into just plain discontent with it. Compared to Aldnoah, it wrapped itself up a lot better and the latter half of the series had some good world building and character momments, stupid and otherwise. I can't however give this show anything higher than a C due to its more stupid and tropey parts with the faceplants, overly gratuitous lesbianism (before you comment that this is what I should have expected, you can do sexual scenes without being overly gratuitous and more subtle) and the fact that Ange is extremely unlikeable in a way that is less compelling and more aggravating. Add to it the questionable framing of certain sexual assault scenes and this show putters out into an ending that doesn't fully redeem itself |
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Souther
 Posts: 602 |
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Embryo never seemed to realise that his own cynicism and views about humanity caused his world to be a failure. Was he that delusional he couldn't see that his methods would result in a bunch of dependent and prejudiced people? Or did he not want to face up to it? Who knows. I'm glad the guy's gone, but I was hoping for an even more spectacular finish of his Ragna-mail by Ange. Strangely, his Ragna-mail didn't seem to put up much of a fight, I thought it'd be a lot stronger than that.
Overall, this was a good ending. Ange and co. got what they wanted, the Norma and DRAGONs are at peace, the Mana users, though living in ruins, survived and may have some hope of recovery. At the very least, it's better than being wiped out by Embryo for being failures. And if at the start of the series, someone told me I'd end up feeling sorry for Jill, I'd have never believed it. It really is a shame, especially right after she finally made it up to Salia. I really did like the characters. Not only was it great seeing Ange develop, but characters like Rosalie as well, who went from being a loser and a bully into a much stronger character. And considering what the show is, I enjoyed the story and the slow unravelling of the world, especially the reveal that the discrimination against the Norma was to justify enslaving them and taking advantage of their resistance against DRAGONs to harvest crystals and keep society running. One thing that wasn't really cleared up. Where did Maggie get the inhibitors and the plant from to use on Vivian? |
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