Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Angel M Cazares
 Posts: 5420 Location: Iscandar |
|
|||||
|
I did not expect much in terms of story and characters after its first few episodes indicated that CROSS ANGE was going to be a brainless, trashy show. But the show managed to go beyond trashy in its last third when the producers started to care about offering a clearer direction to the story and characters.
I am planning to buy the Sentai BD's (spoiler[too bad the uncensored home video version does not have nipples]). I gave CROSS ANGE a Decent rating and put in the same category as other fun but trashy and pandering shows like Valvrave and Sword Art Online. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18179 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
Oh, I don't consider him sympathetic at all, either. He's a bastard who made the bed that he laid in (rather literally!), so the revelations about his past don't sway me one iota. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
|
|||||
|
Now that the final credits have roll I can say this. Cross Ange is a series that could have been better, it is obviously a bit rough since they did not have the time/money to polish it. It is not hard core sci-fi (like Planetes), it is not moe pandering fodder and it has your usual "this will be fixed in the disc release" issues. But calling this series trash(y) is a shallow comment that says nothing about the series and everything about the person saying it (which either hates it or is embarrassed to like it enough to see it every week). Make no mistake, you can call anything trash and justify yourself.
Also, the reaction to this series has parallels with the very first women marathon. People were appalled to see females utterly exhausted (geez, really, it is only a marathon). This is no different, yes, terrible things were done to Ange (whether in episode one it was a cavity search for full blown rape is left for the viewer to decide, even on the disc release) but it would not have received such reaction if Ange were male instead. I think Ange is a model for the 21th century heroine, I would not mind a sequel but what I really like is more heroines like her in other animes, I think she is a better role model than your average wheeny and helpless princess. I am feeling hopeful since the disc sales were decent, so people will take notice that you CAN do this kind of series without going bankrupt. |
||||||
|
||||||
HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
|
|||||
True enough but you have to realize this anime is big enough to be more than one thing and fit in one category. So I can call this "trashy" and at the same time critically praise it. To tell the story that CA told it did NOT need to: * Sexual domination with heavy BSDM imagery * Multiple face-in-the-crotch gags (keeps Blood- happy anyway) * Ange stripped naked all the time -- other girls too * Lesbian group sex * Lesbian rape attempt * Love-hotel sex (aborted) * Sex on the Beach (completed) * Bare bottom spanking * Public whipping and hanging of scantily clad Ange * Dungeon whipping And so on. There are more than a few people around who will look at this list and say "oh this anime is trash" and not bother looking at anything else in it. I don't really have a problem with anyone doing that as everyone's tastes differ. To the extent I have a problem with them is their opinion that anyone who sees merit in work like this must be defective or criminal somehow. But I don't spend a lot of time worrying about that. Also I want to avoid the same old "fan service" debate that this and other web sites have seen a thousand times. I don't care to repeat all the arguments that have been done so many times already. On the other hand I do go out on a limb and point out that most of the events I describe above are more than just fan service but actually necessary to fully depict the characters and where they are coming from. (Not the face plants. That would not happen in any universe. That was just being playful.) In the universe they created those events would actually happen quite naturally and to hide them out of the anime would have only thinned it out to its detriment. People with all their extreme objections to it are applying U.S. 2015-mores to the scene where it is just not appropriate. We ain't in Kansas anymore. CA is of course not a masterpiece but it did earn high marks for things it did do. If they did a G-rated version of CA it would be as bland as an airline magazine. There are other anime that push the envelope as well as and better than CA but we got great escapist entertainment out of it. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||||
|
I put Cross Ange on the same level as Kill la Kill. Both are bombastic, series full of traditional tropes and them some. The characters of Ryuko and Satsuki may be different from Ange and Tusk and Hilda etc... But in the end they all want the same thing. A world where people are free. Free to not be discriminated, free from being sacrificed on the altar of uniformity.
And both shows are full of fanservice of sexual nature, the kamui uniforms in Kill la Kill are more slutty than the uniforms worn by the Ragna Mail pilots in Cross Ange. Let alone the rapey will of the Kamui in the first episode. The action is framed so to entice the viewer to Ryuko's boobs or ass continuously. And to say nothing of Satsuki. People were complaining about the rape (attempted rape) scene on Ange. What about the rape scenes going on in Kill la Kill ? spoiler[Both Ryuko and Satsuki are raped by their mother. Not some stranger. Their mother. Satsuki is given an orgasm and raped by her naked mother in the bath, and what happens to Ryuko is a mind rape. There is also another rape scene between Satsuki prisonner and her mother. Who grasps and fondles Satsuki's privates. The rape scenes in Kill la Kill are played in a very conscious and enticing way. They are framed to please the audience. Other minor characters are continuously playing peeping toms on Ryuko's nakedness. And Embryo is as creepy a villain as Satsuki's mother.] So I don't want to hear the meme that Kill la Kill is some kind of high artistic expression of anime whereas Cross Ange is the epitome of human debasement. Because it doesn't work. Both series are so similar in the themes and the use of fanservice that to say otherwise underlines just how biased one is. Now to the animation department. Even here, Cross Ange is mediocre but still better than Kill la Kill. Kill la Kill uses stylised animation, but it is used so as to hide how crappy the animation really is. Go watch or rewatch the series. You'll be amazed how poor the quality really is. My final conclusion is this : if you have enjoyed Kill la Kill (everything in it, not just selective sequences) you will enjoy Cross Ange. Fanservice and all. Both series say something about the danger of conformity. Cross Ange is not trashy, it is not a trainwreck. It is also not high art. But then neither is Kill la Kill. Edit : for corrections and minor additions [EDIT: Spoiler tags added. Openly discussing details of CA is fine here, but that doesn't carry over to KlK. - Key] Last edited by Cptn_Taylor on Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:58 pm; edited 4 times in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
|
|||||
I think the term you are looking for is "b-movie". Yeah, I know this is neither a movie nor live-action, but the definition applies to a T, this is a production with a limited budget and time (this could have been 3 or 4 cours easily if you flesh out many ideas and close all open plots) that nevertheless is entertaining.
I have to admire the vision of the director since he delivers. This COULD have been a trainwreck (Glasslip, I am looking at you) but the series neither became inconsistent, preachy or boring. There is nothing wrong with some saucy elements as long as they do belong in the story and heck, lesbians do exist in real life (never touched the theme since I could not find the damn article, but I read somewhere that all air force female pilots are lesbians because male brains see everything as vectors which is a must to be a good pilot)
Objection your honor, back in the 60s people called the original Star Trek series "escapism" but it had social commentary an so does xAgne, humans of the mitsurugi empire are much like modern humans, too quick too hate and too slow to think by themselves. As I said in the anime thread, Aura is an analogy for oil, we ourselves are oblivious to the consequences or having no readily available options and you just need to see Mad Max to see the consequences of losing access to it. |
||||||
|
||||||
Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
|
|||||
As a person who defends Kill la Kill as art and sees Cross Ange as trashy media: A: I disliked the scenes that you mentioned when they happened B: This all assumes that Cross Ange is going for a theme and while it may have an undertone of freedom and lack of uniformity, I think Kill la Kill's exaggeration with the uniformed one star students, and spoiler[ the plot to spread life fibers all over the globe] serves the point far better than Cross Ange which seems to meander between the legitimately interesting scenes between the Norma and the humans and the onslaught of fanservice scenes that seem jarring compared to the serious context the world is in. C: Kill la Kill compared to other fanservice shows is high art as it actually has a thematic reason to have the fanservice: mainly both the fashion/fascism and clothing as oppression connection. Cross Ange only seems to have them for either just pandering in the case of the lesbian scenes or oddly framed fall from graces in the case of the first two episodes. Yes I am still distasteful of the camera framing during those scenes. |
||||||
|
||||||
Souther
 Posts: 602 |
|
|||||
Oh yeah, I should've clarified that was aimed at Haruhi's post, my bad.
The Hilda/Chris/Rosalie scenes were fanservice and yeah, they could've been done away with, though I think they did make sense thematically. The harsh environment of Arzenal generally lends to power dynamics and people seeking comfort/protection whereever they can find it. Hilda and co. hooked up with Zola for comfort/protection and when Zola died, Hilda took over the chain of command in their clique and offered them the same thing. The other scene with Ange kissing Hilda was Ange reassuring Hilda that there wasn't anything wrong in liking girls/women, though there was an element of fanservice in it. While some of the intense content, cynicism and edginess was incredibly mean-spirited, I felt it was pretty reflective of a world made in-universe by a cynical 1000+ year old cad going on 13 who became disconnected from reality and humanity. Last edited by Souther on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18179 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
Oh, CA's fan service is pandering; there's no question about that. Just because some of of the fan service scenes have more going on than just pandering doesn't mean that they aren't still pandering. However, I have been watching deeper into KlK as it gets broadcast on Toonami and have seen nothing which convinces me that KlK isn't doing the exact same thing. I have found arguments that its fan service is so much more acceptable because of its supposed thematic purposes to be based on thin reasoning. Sure, I get the whole business about how the uniforms equate to using clothing for repressive purposes - the series beats the viewer over the head with that point, after all - but to echo a line often used against other fan service-sporting titles, that could have been done just as well without having two of the main female characters dress as strippers in battle. That the series does have a sense of humor about that doesn't change that one bit. Now, mind you, I'm hardly condemning KlK for using the fan service. In fact, I don't mind it at all. I just don't agree that it's doing anything special enough to warrant its fan service getting a pass - even a partial one. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
|
|||||
|
About the fanservice, this also depends where you set the bar; there was a time when merely seeing the nude calf of a female was fanservice (or even pornography). I am into yuri (and similar) but cross ange did not push any buttons for me, the scenes were taken from too far, had too little movement and were clearly framed to set the ambiance. The very fact that some see Ange kissing Hilda as the act of a straight woman speaks volumes of how low key such scenes really were. Even the steam bath scenes felt casual instead of erotic. For me KlK did felt more erotic (specially on the transformation scenes), even if it was a lot more cartoony (a turn off, at least for me) than cross ange.
I think that for whatever reason xAnge angered some viewers and the easy way of picking on the show is denouncing it as show made for fanservice, when the simple truth is that it was made to sell mech figures (and if the disc sales cover the cost of production then sunrise can say "mission acomplished"). So if we have food porn (se koffuku no graffiti), then xAnge would be mech porn :-p |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Izanagi009
Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
|
|||||
Truth be told, I had a hard time thinking of a counter to Cap's response because the point does make sense. Here's the thing about me though. my expectation for a fanservice show or a show with any fanservice is damn low so the fact that there is some thematic stuff in it already exceeds my bar. Charles Dunbar's (preview of his work here)connection of the anime to Japanese myth and history also helps as I am a huge Weeboo so any Japanese cultural stuff such as Satsuki being in a position similar to Amatarasu or Ragyo as Izanami or even just the field trip with all the quirky little references to Osaka, Kobe, and Kyoto are a plus. Finally and I think this is a big one, the show doesn't feel as harsh as Cross Ange. Yes, KLK is more gratuitous with it's fanservice but I don't feel like it just waves it in my face like keys in front of a baby, I feel like it's just part of a crazy world with crazy people. In addition, there is a gleeful tone and energy through most of the show and fanservice and only dips its tones into serious narrative in the second half. Even the objectionable scenes feel less harsh than Cross Ange's even though I still dislike them. So while it may not get a full pass from me, I can at least laugh along with it; it works for DxD, it works for KLK (though I still think KLK beats DxD on a narrative level)
Gundam was plamo porn given the fact that it was made to help sell Gunpla and yet I still consider them classics in anime and great war dramas. Just because something is "blank" porn doesn't mean it has to be bad Last edited by Izanagi009 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18179 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
This is the best argument I've seen so far for KlK comparatively being given leniency. I have been known before to refer to the fan service in some titles as mean-spirited, and while I don't think CA qualifies in that category, it definitely doesn't have the spirit of fun to it that KlK does. Hence I could see why that would make a difference for some. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11339 |
|
|||||
|
I didn't like the first episodes of either series. I kept watching Ange to see how low it would go, while I had different reasons to see if Kill would get any better. Kill got better faster than Ange did.
The biggest difference I see between them is that Kill seemed to be parodying fan service in the way people have speculated about Embryo being a parody. You want fan service? Hey, fan service for everybody!! Blow-the-doors-off service like you've never seen before in one place! And they did it in service (pun intended) to the story they were telling. Ange's fan service was run of the mill by comparison, but its story got told in spite of it. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
|
|||||
Aside from the fan service, in KiK the violence is more cartoonish -- the kind where a character can deform around a blow to the face and pop back into shape for the next scene. Even the fascist sadistic execution in the first minutes of the show is played for laughs. CA has none of that -- it has little girls cut in half and the deaths are real and painful and never played for a joke. The only humorous violence is when Ange clocks Tusk now and then for one of his famous face plants. As a result CA is positioned to make a statement of a sort that KiK could never make. Some people read the statement as "women or disposable after used for pleasure" or something like that and from there the fireworks started. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||||
I have to wonder what the fun is in watching spoiler[a mother rape her 2 children. And those scenes are played "playfully", almost like saying "gee, look at how sexy Setsuki is in the bath while her mother touches her all over and gives her an orgasm".] And there are other more disturbing scenes later on. It is not acceptable. I will say this, Kill la Kill changes pace like Zambot 3. What you get in the second half of the series is not what you expect based on the first half. With CA you know exactly what you're getting into from the first couple of episodes. And it never deviates from that. But this should not constitute an excuse to say, well those scenes are irrelevant so I can dismiss them and look at Klk like a family friendly show or a show that never had a ton of fanservice of dubious nature in the first place. As for Klk being more funny. Superficially yes, the characters are drawn in a very exagerated way. Hyper stylised etc... But when you dig down the situations are never happy. There is an underlying hatred and unhappiness that flows throughout the series. It's just that it is concealed under all the bombastic action. The little girl mankanshuko plays the same role in Kill la Kill that Tusk plays in Cross Ange. She's the only "normal" character. Not abused, not consumed by rage and revenge. Etc.. And the one that brings Ryuko back from the brink. I'm an convinced had Trigger made Cross Ange, the show would have never received the kind of infinite hatred it has. But since it's a Sunrise show well that's what you get. I will not change my opinion, Kill la Kill and Cross Ange are almost identical copies. Superficially different, dig a little bit and they're the same. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group