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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 4016
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
It is a too top-down heavy approach in the form it is being implemented.
It lacks the synergy and interaction with one's demographics compared to for example Crunchy. Heck, even Funi would beat it on that front. It's dictated from the top and people be damned to have any say or influence on how it should operate/get better. Or at least that's the general impression I get....


I remember when we were comparing Outbreak Company to a metaphor of anime's first breakout in the US--
"Cool Japan" oddly mirrors the government/army trying to force export sales on an alien foreign country that seems like a useful market, but what it needs is the geek fan-passion of a Shinichi to get us hooked on WHY it's cool...And then the disease spreads. Cool

We already had that in the 90's, with the underground college fans, twenty years before the marketing and authority figures decided to try and exploit a piece of it.


Last edited by EricJ2 on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sakura Shinguji



Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 153
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:24 pm Reply with quote
EricJ2 wrote:
noblesse oblige wrote:
That last question brings up an interesting point about the rather subjective nature of "coolness" and something I have been curious about for some time now.


Y'mean, why hasn't someone grabbed mdo7 and told him that nobody on the planet likes Korean stuff except other Koreans?...While emphasizing the point by repeatedly smashing his face into the computer monitor? Razz
It was cute/annoying on the boards for a while (substitute "American" for "South Korean", and you've got Snomaster...PERIOD)--But if he's going to break out of his cage and start scribbling his nationalistically obsessed geek-banner-waving on the actual archivable columns, that's it, SWAT teams, shut this guy down. NOW.


I don't spend as much time here as many other folks do, but even my limited browsing has been enough to make me tired of that one-note drum beat. And to see it taking up valuable space in an Answerman column is depressing. Yes, it's good of Justin to take a question at face value. But when that question is so badly loaded, and instead of being born of any true interest in the Cool Japan concept is simply the latest part of an incessant and undying laser-focused campaign that hardly anyone here seems to even care about, it's just a waste. Though maybe it was just a slow week for questions.
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Angel Cop's schlock dub is the best thing about that awful mess.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:35 pm Reply with quote
To that K-issue, I don't really follow Letter-pop or Letter-dramas, so maybe I'll care about how great Korea's cultural export is when they start making anime.
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:49 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
To that K-issue, I don't really follow Letter-pop or Letter-dramas, so maybe I'll care about how great Korea's cultural export is when they start making anime.


They kinda did and it's pretty terrible. Their manwha on the other hand fares better, but if you're not into martial arts or K-drama with manga art, then you're going to have a tough time.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:20 pm Reply with quote
I just want a South Korean company to enter the console market, give me something that will revitalize my love for console gaming.

As for the bad dubs, just wow I didn't know how things were crappy back then when it comes to dubbing anime much less being such a slow process. I always thought for well over 20 years that the bad dubs were just a result of last second voice acting. Also, how VAs came to be today is similar to how most of the anime industry today in Japan is being ran by mostly rabid fans coming either right out of college or from another related gig (ex. eroge or doujinshi), which also resulted in quality being all over the place.
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noblesse oblige



Joined: 22 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:01 pm Reply with quote
I think dubs are the same as they've always been: a wide spectrum skewing poor with a few gems here and there. What boggles my mind is that there is seemingly no rhyme or reason to it. A show like Attack on Titan you would think would have no expense spared when it came to dubbing, but the voice for Eren makes it unwatchable. I'm not some sort of sub purist either. I'll occasionally come across original japanese voice actors that I can't stand as well, usually some idol trying to promote their singing career. If only every dub could be like the one for Steamboy!
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brankoburcksen



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:15 pm Reply with quote
Your last, very long comment, answered my own speculation way better than I articulated my question.
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Taskforce



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:25 pm Reply with quote
I actually liked Myung and wish Anne Sherman had done more anime in the past than she did. The one thing I can say about her is at least she didn't do the voices with that unnatural squeaky voice that is 50 octaves higher than her natural voice that most VA's use in todays dubbing. With some of these VA's recently, you expect the neighborhood dogs to start howling at the unnatural highs they generate. Yes, some of them can actually act, but they could do it just as easily (or probably easier) a few octaves lower and more natural sounding. And when they can't act, that high pitch just makes things even worse.
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
To that K-issue, I don't really follow Letter-pop or Letter-dramas, so maybe I'll care about how great Korea's cultural export is when they start making anime.


They kinda did and it's pretty terrible.

Leafie is pretty good; spoiler[it's better than Wolf Children], and I just watched The Fake which has got me really interested in Yeon Sang-ho's other work. It wasn't very "anime-y", though, if that matters.

I've never seen any television series, though.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Regarding mdo7's K-Crusade, I actually found the response in the column interesting as I hadn't really given much thought to how Korea was handling the internet (makes sense when you also consider the e-sports scene, that they'd be so much more internet friendly than even the US probably). The openness to "sharing" might be especially relevant when you consider how Korea is similar to how America treats media from places (like Europe). I don't usually watch doramas, but I actually did watch a K-Drama series on CrunchyRoll called "Queen of Office" which is really good. It's worth noting that (altho the plot is NOTHING like it) it is similar to the American "The Office" in that its a complete remake of a foreign (Japanese) show. I believe Taiwan also re-purposes a bunch of Japanese content. So it might be interesting to consider "inspired by Japanese version" content when discussing reach.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Justin's answer to mdo7 is so pro-K and anti-J that mdo7 could have written it himself, LOL.

But yeah, ribbing aside, Japan really is stuck in the twentieth century. Their entertainment industry has good talent and does extremely well domestically - as you'd expect - but they'll always struggle to be a global force when they are so backwards and up themselves. Even if the geriatrics currently in charge of the Japanese music industry retire immediately I am doubtful that things will get better any time soon.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Oh wow, my question (the last one) got answered, Thanks Justin!!!

You wrote:
Despite all of this effort, it's unmistakable that other countries, namely Japan's rival country South Korea, have made far more headway into the hearts and minds of Westerners over the past 5 years or so. Korea's TV dramas and pop music have had a huge cultural impact on American shores. I wouldn't call them mainstream per se, but the audience for these things went from seemingly tiny to roughly as significant of a force as anime fandom (overplayed, inexplicable hit "Gangnam Style" notwithstanding). That fast ramp-up was quite a boon, and got a lot of press attention. Anime did too, back when it was growing by leaps and bounds. By comparison, Japanese music and TV dramas haven't had anywhere near the same levels of success. In fact, the few times any have been given a real release in the West, they've largely face-planted.


I agreed, and for any of you on ANN that are still skeptic about if Korean pop culture has made it this far, well:

Grammy-The K-Pop Explosion

Fuse TV report on K-pop (Fuse 2 article on K-pop breakthrough in US: 2012, and 2013)

Mnet America video on K-pop breathrough in US and around the world

NBC News-What is K-pop

Korean Dramas Hook Millennial Viewers Who Speak Spanish and English-DramaFever viewership jumped 440% in a year

Here's why millions of Americans are binge-watching Korean dramas

You wrote:
"Cool Japan" -- an easy to ridicule phrase if ever there was one -- has been sharply criticized as a waste of money and overly complicated, as such things often are. That's probably accurate, but even if it's not, government programs can only do so much. The real ideas and meaningful effort have to come from the companies in charge of making the stuff. And therein lies the real problem: while Korea's pop culture is very internet savvy and visually stunning, Japan's media business is still very much grounded in the 20th century.


Justin, I did notice that too. It seems like Japan and South Korea are the opposite of each other when it comes to adapting new tech. As a matter of fact, most of the new cutting-edge tech that are coming out of Asia are either from South Korea, Taiwan, and China. But not from Japan.

You wrote:
Compare, if you will: piracy has always been a problem for K-pop, so the industry was one of the first worldwide to jettison physical CD sales and make their money via touring and merchandise.


Well Justin, piracy can be a thorn but it did played a critical role for South Korea:

Beyond Hallyu-Would Hallyu ever be possible without piracy?

Despite rampart piracy, sales for Korean music continue to rise and companies in South Korea didn't face any financial losses from piracy. SM, YG, and JYP had seen sales doubled for the last 3 years. Meanwhile, Japan's music sales continue to decline and Japan put up a lot of anti-piracy measure.

So this makes me question Japan's claim of piracy hurting their market when South Korea seem to be benefiting from rampart piracy.

You wrote:
I've spent years trying to navigate and understand the Japanese reason the entrenched Japanese entertainment business refuses to do things that will clearly make them money, and start growing a bigger audience overseas. Part of it is definitely arrogance ("This is one of the biggest stars in Japan! If we're going to invade America now, I want my client to be paid what he's worth!"), the ever-present expectation that audiences in the West will work exactly like they do in Japan (ludicrously priced CDs and all), and a demand for control that simply isn't tolerated elsewhere. In my opinion, the Japanese entertainment industry has sabotaged itself with its methodology, and until that changes they won't be able to grow much of an overseas audience.


For some of you that are wondering what's up with Japan not heavily promoting (as in aggressive marketing when South Korea is good at this) their other aspect of their pop culture outside of Japan/Asia when South Korea is so good at this, read this article I found from last month. I'll quote:

Quote:
In The Birth of Korean Cool: How One Nation is Conquering the World Through Pop Culture, Euny Hong outlines the reasons Japan’s reign has come to an end:

First of all, Japanese pop culture, like the Japanese archipelago itself, is too isolated from the rest of the world to have remained a sustainable global influence. […] Others, like pop culture critic Lee Moon-won, point out that Japan is a big enough consumer market as it is (the population is 100 million) and is less dependent than Korea is on foreign exports. For many Japanese companies, it’s not worth the huge risk of a very, very costly overseas marketing campaign.” (200-201)

In addition, she cites that “many of Japan’s video games are for the Japanese market only,” the Japanese are reluctant to learn English (“J-pop bands don’t strategically include non-Japanese members, for example”), the presence of online distribution channels like YouTube and the use of subtitles which Japanese companies refuse to take advantage of, and the practice of grooming potential stars much differently than their Korean counterparts (201-202).


This part of the article got my attention too:

Quote:
Furthermore, celebrity endorsements work differently in Japan anyway. Jason G. Karlin writes in “Through a Looking Glass Darkly: Television Advertising, Idols, and the Making of Fan Audiences” that

unlike celebrities in the US, Japanese [talents] do not endorse products. Instead, image characters lend their star image to the brand, but without implying any direct endorsement or testimonial. The Japanese celebrity is not making any claims or representations for the product. Indeed, in most commercials, the celebrity never even mentions the name of the product.” (74-75)

On the other hand, K-pop idols are much more willing to play the long-game and adapt to their Western counterparts in both business practice and image. This is especially easy when K-pop is already so familiar and hip to an international audience that recognizes its references immediately without needing to Google eight separate pieces of background information to get an idea of what’s going on with the sounds or visuals.


When I was in South Korea for 1 month I saw a lot of Korean celebrities on billboard, cutouts, posters, and many TV ads have K-pop idols, and Korean celebrities in them. I mean they're everywhere (the ads containing K-pop idols and Korean celebrities) when I was in Seoul. I haven't been to Japan, but if what the quote above said is true about Japanese celebrities don't do direct endorsement, then I can see why Japanese celebrities aren't household name outside of Japan and Asia unlike Korean one.

I also think Japan's institutional xenophobia (which is deeply ingrained into Japanese society) could be another reason why Japanese celebrities aren't globally well-known compared to their Korean counterpart. I even read an article about Japan's deglobalization.

Hoppy800 wrote:
I just want a South Korean company to enter the console market, give me something that will revitalize my love for console gaming.


Well I'm keeping my eye out, but it wouldn't surprise me if LG can make a gaming console that can rival Playstation 4 and Xbox One.

Regarding the other question:

About campy anime dub from 80's and 90's: They may be horrible (the dub I mean), but they're worth for a good laugh.

Regarding Edgar question: Yes, I agreed with Justin on how anime became very big in Latin America and Europe and didn't have the same impact in US until thanks to network TVs, and the internet.


Last edited by mdo7 on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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danilo07



Joined: 25 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:56 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
To that K-issue, I don't really follow Letter-pop or Letter-dramas, so maybe I'll care about how great Korea's cultural export is when they start making anime.

LOL Korean animators. As far as other Korean cultural exports are concerned their movies are good, but their pop music and TV dramas are the personification of Satan. Just so there is no place for wrong interpretation, pop music and TV dramas generally suck regardless one's nation.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 4016
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:57 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Justin's answer to mdo7 is so pro-K and anti-J that mdo7 could have written it himself, LOL.

Sakura Shinguji wrote:
I don't spend as much time here as many other folks do, but even my limited browsing has been enough to make me tired of that one-note drum beat. And to see it taking up valuable space in an Answerman column is depressing.

mdo7 wrote:
Oh wow, my question (the last one) got answered, Thanks Justin!!!


....Zoom. Rolling Eyes

(Y'know that Gary Larson Far Side cartoon, about "What we tell dogs, and what they hear"?
Well, actually guess most here do, it keeps getting cited in regards to Snomaster posts, as well.)
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