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Stuart Smith wrote:

People shouldn't have to justify why they like something just because the current trend is to call it sexist or trashy. It's the same reason I hate the term 'guilty pleasure'; it comes off pretentious like we as human beings are above the simple notion of fun or enjoyment and people feel they have to acknowledge the very act of doing so is bad. Just do and enjoy whatever you want. At the end of the day, nobody actually cares what your hobbies are.

Reminds me of how candies (and other sweet snacks) aimed at women have to have names like "sinful" or "indulgent," suggesting that women inherently cannot have sweet things. There seems to be at least one example at every mall shop that specializes in sweets. And I always wonder: What's the big deal here? Why does it have to be a bad thing for women to enjoy sweet foods? Does that mean it's not bad if men enjoy sweet foods?

As for nobody caring what your hobbies are, I would disagree. Peer pressure is powerful. People do judge others based on what they enjoy in their free time. Hence, the only way to make sure nobody cares what your hobbies are is to never show any signs to other people you have them at all. (My mom, for instance, has no hobbies as she considers hobbies unproductive wastes of time; hence, when she learns someone has a hobby, she most often starts looking down on them or sees them as fools.)

Of course, I'm sure that most of the time, people will be neutral towards other people's hobbies, and in some cases, be supportive of them (which is still attention from other people), and that it's more an exception than a rule that you will be shunned for being into something. Of course, certain hobbies will be more taboo than others--not everyone wants to know who's into BDSM, for instance.

WOW, thanks for removing my comment about finding sexism where there isn't any, ANN.

Shit like this that proves that sites like you want to silence any form of criticism. My original post was not hateful, it was not degrading, and it was not offensive. I even PRAISED this place for being less pandering to the Shonen Jump Weekly crowd. Guess I was completely wrong.

It's fine if you want to disagree with my opinion. But when you let other people with different views post what they want, and then censor people like me, that's when it becomes unfair.

Probably no point in posting this. It'll get removed most likely.

Stuart Smith wrote:

Shippoyasha wrote:

And Bayonetta especially is a gleeful celebration of the sexually over the top anyway. Much like how Kill la Kill was.

Whenever I see the excuse of something is okay because the woman is in charge of her sexuality, it comes off like the individual trying to find a way to justify themselves liking something perceived as "problematic" by their peers. Mental gymnastics, if you would. Kill la Kill is a good example, because it got praised on ANN despite the general anti-fan-service tone of the community and staff. People were trying to say it was a parody of fanservice, or it was actually empowering, and insisting scenes like Ragyo fingering Satsuki and the general groping going wasn't male pandering in the slightest bit.

People shouldn't have to justify why they like something just because the current trend is to call it sexist or trashy. It's the same reason I hate the term 'guilty pleasure'; it comes off pretentious like we as human beings are above the simple notion of fun or enjoyment and people feel they have to acknowledge the very act of doing so is bad. Just do and enjoy whatever you want. At the end of the day, nobody actually cares what your hobbies are.

-Stuart Smith

I agree with that. I mean, there's really no way to properly 'defend' anything in the face of people who are already turned away by risque content or if it offends their sensibilities no matter what. I for one am not that big into horror/gore myself, though I try to not accuse creators/fans for being perverse about violence. People may stumble over how to 'justify' something to non-fans or people who actively dislike something, but that doesn't mean people are stupid and don't have a personal filter for a lot of these content. Even fans of fanservice, gore and other risky content often do realize and acknowledge that correlating it to the real world may not work or could even be dangerous.

But I agree, I don't really say what I like is a 'guilty pleasure' at least in the way I justify liking something to myself.

It doesn't mean people shouldn't have any room to critique stuff. It's just that there should be some levels of benefit of doubt regarding why and how people enjoy these 'risky' elements.

Maybe I'm in the rarity, but I don't really care about what society thinks of my open like of my hobby. It doesn't mean I push my hobby to everyone, but if it's 'exposed', I don't really care about what people say. Because I know I can have a decent conversation about why I like the things I do, and if that doesn't pass someone else's barometer, that's really too bad. The ultimate judge of an individual is the individual themselves, at least as hobbies are concerned. Which is why I guess it becomes a very thorny topic when hobbies are implied to be a net negative or have actual harmful agency.

My comment was deleted, huh? Not surprised. Well, enjoy your echo chamber. Cool

The great thing about anime is that all the whining from the West will never reach them. They have the right idea there. Enjoy what you want. There's stuff for everyone. From shounen to shoujo. For otaku and fujoshi. For hardcore and casuals. People vote with their wallets and content creators make the products the audience wants, whatever it may be. And that's how it should be.

I recently learned the concept of meritocracy is disgusting to some. Don't like characters like Bayonetta? Get your money (you people have lots) and make a great game with your ideals and change the market with your own hands, not by slinging mud from your ivory towers but by competing.

Will get deleted anyways, because despite being so "inclusive" you reject every single thing that doesn't fit your views.

Telling you, these forums are going to turn into the Kotaku comments section. Just one big circle jerk with any dissenters silenced. Today, the term "harassment" is so overly used (usually incorrectly), anything can be interpreted as it. Just giving legitimate criticism is considered to be attacking people now. Probably have shot myself in the foot just by posting this.

I have been visiting this site for over 10 years but the radicalization of opinions is fairly recent methinks. It will be interesting to see how quickly Todd's column will morph from "Cool old games, personal game stories and gaming news with great insight" to "OMG, gaming is so misogynist, this game has boobs and it is disgusting and you are a disgusting person for enjoying it", you know, like a lot of people have lately.

Yeah, don't delete their posts. It only feeds their persecution complexes.

No one is going to take away your games. No one is proposing laws to limit your access to titles that contain less-then-flattering depictions of women. Feminists are not hiding under your bed, waiting for you to go to sleep so they can come out and steal your copy of Dragon's Crown.

So don't worry, developers on both sides of the Pacific will continue to make trashy games with plenty of T&A to keep you satisfied. And you'll still be free to buy them.

Oh, and if you think Todd has only recently become vocal of gender issues in games... it's obvious you haven't been following him long. He's always been mindful of that. Hell, it's one of the reasons why I like his work.

And if that still bothers you, well you can always click that X in the corner of your browser window. Go ahead. No one is stopping you.

Paul Soth wrote:

Yeah, don't delete their posts. It only feeds their persecution complexes.

Disagree completely. Please do continue to clear away these garbage posts. You can't "win" with intellectually bankrupt apologists. Their conduct is fundamentally dishonest with no intention of engaging in real, good faith discussion. No matter what you do or say they'll find a way to attack you for it. Hence, you might as well at least clear away their histrionics so the rest of us can engage in an actual discussion.

Last edited by E_X on Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:33 am; edited 2 times in total

Paul Soth wrote:

Yeah, don't delete their posts. It only feeds their persecution complexes.

No one is going to take away your games. No one is proposing laws to limit your access to titles that contain less-then-flattering depictions of women. Feminists are not hiding under your bed, waiting for you to go to sleep so they can come out and steal your copy of Dragon's Crown.

So don't worry, developers on both sides of the Pacific will continue to make trashy games with plenty of T&A to keep you satisfied. And you'll still be free to buy them.

Oh, and if you think Todd has only recently become vocal of gender issues in games... it's obvious you haven't been following him long. He's always been mindful of that. Hell, it's one of the reasons why I like his work.

And if that still bothers you, well you can always click that X in the corner of your browser window. Go ahead. No one is stopping you.

Trashy games, huh? If Bayonetta 2 is a trashy game I sure hope they keep making them. And nope, not going to click that X, I'm going to keep reading his column because I like it even if I don't agree with everything he says and I'm going to say something when I disagree with it.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, feminists are not hiding under my bed. You see, in my country, feminists fight to pass laws that are harsher on men who beat their wives and kids. Feminists fight to create unions of working women to help them gain economic independence in rural areas. Feminists run campaigns to raise awareness of birth control in places were it is not uncommon for women to have 6 or more kids. What feminists don't do here is wear 45 dollar t-shirts made by poor people in the third world to afford food and act like a videogame is oppressing them. So, no feminists under my bed, I sleep on it. What you guys are... well, I don't know what that is.

2nd EDIT: The shirts in question are actually 70 dollars. I apologize.

Paul Soth wrote:

No one is going to take away your games. No one is proposing laws to limit your access to titles that contain less-then-flattering depictions of women.

I see this line pop up from time to time in this discussion, and I have to point Frederic Wertham never called for laws to ban comics either, he merely raised concerns over them. No laws came out of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency about the subject. He simply created enough fear and peer pressure from the public to make comics self-censor, and destroy, themselves which is why we are left with the hollow shell that is the American comic book industry as we know it today.

The reassurance of "no one wants to ban your video games" line is completely irrelevant. People can get rid of them without laws and it has happened to media before. Will it happen to games? Maybe, maybe not. But people should stop saying no one wants to ban or take away games in these discussions because it doesn't mean anything.

Paul Soth wrote:

Yeah, don't delete their posts. It only feeds their persecution complexes.

Can ya call it a complex when they actually are being deleted, though? Laughing

Usually that term is for when you're just being paranoid and it's not actually true. I remember something like this went down a year or two ago before a mass banning happened on the forums. Guess people should watch out Wink

ikillchicken wrote:

Disagree completely. Please do continue to clear away these garbage posts. You can't "win" with intellectually bankrupt apologists. Their conduct is fundamentally dishonest with no intention of engaging in real, good faith discussion. No matter what you do or say they'll find a way to attack you for it. Hence, you might as well at least clear away their histrionics so the rest of us can engage in an actual discussion.

Hey now, everyone's entitled to their opinion. There's no need to insult people like that. If they want to discuss something it is engaging in a discussion, ya know?

Quote:

Yeah, don't delete their posts. It only feeds their persecution complexes.

Only people with a persecution complex are these feminists that think they have a monopoly on social injustice and inequality. There are plenty of sexist double standards that men face too, so don't act as if women are the only ones who face unfairness.

I'm an atheist living in America, a country where half the population thinks that we're just as bad as rapists and that we're all morally bankrupt. I am Chinese and have to deal with under-representation in government, media, and everything else. Same goes for my atheism, as there are no atheists in the US government. I'm also from a Middle Eastern background as well and see this country generalizing all people who live in that area as terrorists. Don't lecture me on "persecution complexes." As much as I hate societal views on these things that I have mentioned, I'm not going to play victim and pretend that I'm the only one who has to deal with these things. Men, women, blacks, whites, etc all have their own problems. Inequality is not a contest, and as humans we should ALL be working together to end it.

Quote:

No one is going to take away your games. No one is proposing laws to limit your access to titles that contain less-then-flattering depictions of women. Feminists are not hiding under your bed, waiting for you to go to sleep so they can come out and steal your copy of Dragon's Crown.

This point has already been refuted by other members on this board, so I don't need to repeat the excellent posts they've already made.

Quote:

So don't worry, developers on both sides of the Pacific will continue to make trashy games with plenty of T&A to keep you satisfied. And you'll still be free to buy them.

I don't understand what your problem is. Is it so bad that core games contain attractive looking women AND men? Is it so bad that as a straight male, I find "hot girls" visually appealing? Dude, sex sells to both genders. Look at any Hollywood film, any shaving commercial, any women's magazine. The guys there are all buff attractive dudes with bodies that most males simply don't have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing sexy people in media.

And no, I don't play games like Bayonetta 2 because of "T&A." I play them because they're FUN and they occasionally offer good narratives. If you want proof of hypocrisy, look at places like Polygon. They praise Western games like GTAV giving them high scores, but absolutely condemn Japanese games like Killer is Dead and Bayonetta 2 for their supposed "misogyny." This is absolutely stunning in its stupidity. GTAV actually has real nudity and strong sexual content. Killer is Dead and Bayonetta 2 are all playful teases with the most being harmless fan-service shots. But regardless, none of this matters to me at all. If you want something for the sex, go watch pornography. I play these games because I enjoy them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

Disagree completely. Please do continue to clear away these garbage posts. You can't "win" with intellectually bankrupt apologists. Their conduct is fundamentally dishonest with no intention of engaging in real, good faith discussion. No matter what you do or say they'll find a way to attack you for it. Hence, you might as well at least clear away their histrionics so the rest of us can engage in an actual discussion.

Garbage posts? What the hell are you talking about? My original post that was removed simply said that we should not over-analyze harmless media looking for sexism that doesn't exist. I drew parallels to Fox News for example. As most people remembered, they condemned Mass Effect as being sexually explicit pornography. Of course the whole thing was utter BS and overblown, so much so that Jack Thompson even knew that it had been poorly researched and turned into hysteria.

Hell, I find fundamental dishonesty with feminists and people who care about social justice more so than anyone else on the Internet from my own personal experience. Ignoring obvious facts, using straw man attacks, and of course utilizing the hasty generalization fallacy. THESE are the people who don't want actual discussion. If you disagree or criticize them anyway, they immediately play the gender card. It's a very black and white world for them. "If you're not with us, you're against us and automatically a sexist." This kind of mentality is sickening and any ideology that has it is something I will never support.

I have stated time and time again to many people that I am always for equality and fairness. But when you have people creating problems where there are none, using "the system" to their advantage, and accusing any dissenters of false sexism, that's when I have to argue against it. For this reason, I am not a feminist in today's world and instead prefer to be called a secular humanist egalitarian if we have to use labels.

That sweatshop story is bullshit. Don't use the Daily Mail as a news source.

Aside from that, I broke my own rules here. Nothing's going to sway me, and nothing's going to sway you, by the looks of it.

Honestly, I just want this shit to end. It's been a long and really stupid three months. If anything, I've gained more insight as to why people turn to substance abuse as a coping mechanism.

Paul Soth wrote:

That sweatshop story is bullshit. Don't use the Daily Mail as a news source.

Aside from that, I broke my own rules here. Nothing's going to sway me, and nothing's going to sway you, by the looks of it.

Honestly, I just want this shit to end. It's been a long and really stupid three months. If anything, I've gained more insight as to why people turn to substance abuse as a coping mechanism.

That was actually an interesting article, though I have seen "ethically audited" sweatshops in my city, and well... they're not pretty, so I'll take it with a grain of salt. I read the story from numerous sources, including both right and left leaning newspapers from my country. Brand name jeans are manufactured here, for a few dollars a pair, and sold for over 50 in the States, so the story was credible.

I'm not trying to sway you, but I do believe conflicting opinions are healthy I do apologize if I get heated sometimes because feminism means something very different for me and I get annoyed.

I don't know what you've been going through the last few months but I hope things work out for you.

gloverrandal wrote:

Paul Soth wrote:

No one is going to take away your games. No one is proposing laws to limit your access to titles that contain less-then-flattering depictions of women.

I see this line pop up from time to time in this discussion, and I have to point Frederic Wertham never called for laws to ban comics either, he merely raised concerns over them. No laws came out of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency about the subject. He simply created enough fear and peer pressure from the public to make comics self-censor, and destroy, themselves which is why we are left with the hollow shell that is the American comic book industry as we know it today.

The funny thing is that video games already went through this back in 1993 with the Senate hearings about Night Trap and Mortal Kombat. The industry adopted a ratings standard, and, unlike the Comics Code, it didn't ban specific content and wasn't aimed at crippling one particular publisher (EC Comics). And it hasn't stopped games from pushing the envelope well beyond anything we saw in Night Trap or Mortal Kombat.

If there is reason to be concerned about the government censoring games, it has more to do with attempts to link shooting sprees with violent games than it does with the way women look in Dragon's Crown and Bayonetta.

E_X wrote:

I love archives. Very Happy

https://archive.today/NK9aO

I must be using this thing wrong, because I don't see any posts that aren't in the main thread. It just shows the second page, though. Were your posts on the first page?

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