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House of 1000 Manga - Naruto


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Krotchstak



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:32 pm Reply with quote
I dunno. It's pretty inter-personal for well over half the series - even Part 2 only becomes bigger very gradually, to the point where that central conflict didn't even become apparent (or, at least, central) until the narrative entered its final stage. I think that shows a rather reluctant escalation away from the more inter-personal stuff.

I agree the poor guy was limping for years, but no 70-volume manga is going to be without its pains, and he tells a remarkably coherent, logically-progressing story for a Shonen juggernaut. One Piece may have the benefit of Oda's brilliant flair for visual design and may fit the Shonen clothes more than a bit better, but that Naruto achieved the story it did is really rather impressive.


Last edited by Krotchstak on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChocoBar1



Joined: 09 Nov 2011
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:33 pm Reply with quote
Wow Jason I was just kidding before. Razz
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Aaronrules380



Joined: 08 Oct 2012
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:42 pm Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:
Krotchstak wrote:
it shows the guy can tell a hell of story, just not a certain KIND of story. Kishimoto works much better on the inter-personal level than he does on the grand scale.

And I'd say the central conflict being as hum-drum as it was only became an issue for a relatively short period of the series.


Except the story he WANTED to tell is not the story he is good at. And frankly, grand scale can work with interpersonal relations, in fact it relies on them for a point of reference to anchor the audience. The central conflict was not interesting. While Kishimoto started good, he began stumbling and then limped to the finish line after limping for years. That is never a good thing.
Yep. Also I've always found it funny how Naruto made such a big deal over "surpassing previous generations" and then has Madara and The first come and every kage that came multiple generations later is [expletive] useless compared to them. Only people who "surpassed" the previous generations were Naruto and sasuke, which means they're more like an exception than the rule.
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animalia555



Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 467
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Aaronrules380 wrote:
AiddonValentine wrote:
Krotchstak wrote:
it shows the guy can tell a hell of story, just not a certain KIND of story. Kishimoto works much better on the inter-personal level than he does on the grand scale.

And I'd say the central conflict being as hum-drum as it was only became an issue for a relatively short period of the series.


Except the story he WANTED to tell is not the story he is good at. And frankly, grand scale can work with interpersonal relations, in fact it relies on them for a point of reference to anchor the audience. The central conflict was not interesting. While Kishimoto started good, he began stumbling and then limped to the finish line after limping for years. That is never a good thing.
Yep. Also I've always found it funny how Naruto made such a big deal over "surpassing previous generations" and then has Madara and The first come and every kage that came multiple generations later is [expletive] useless compared to them. Only people who "surpassed" the previous generations were Naruto and sasuke, which means they're more like an exception than the rule.

I also don't like that statement but for a different reason. I think newer generations are GENRALLY better off not because the surpassed the previous generations, but because they were able to build on the blocks laid by them. It is like saying Einstein is smarter then Newton because he knew figured out relativity where Newton did not. It completely overshadows the fact that Einstein was able to get as far as he did because, in Newtown's own words, they have stood on the shoulders of giants.


Last edited by animalia555 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1758
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Aaronrules380 wrote:
Yep. Also I've always found it funny how Naruto made such a big deal over "surpassing previous generations" and then has Madara and The first come and every kage that came multiple generations later is [expletive] useless compared to them. Only people who "surpassed" the previous generations were Naruto and sasuke, which means they're more like an exception than the rule.


Ya mean like how instead of Naruto, Sasuke, or anyone else innovating new techniques or making breakthroughs in old ones they just used old ones that were super amazing and just plain better than everything that came after? Or how about that the entire series starts steeping itself in increasingly convoluted prophecy and parallels between the current generations and their predecessors? Or how about the fact that the "hard work beats talent" moral is proven false at every turn due to so many characters being geniuses but still working hard or the fact that most of the successful people in the series had heaps of talent right from the word go? It's hilarious at how the series could never back up the morals it was trying to tell.
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Gyt Kaliba



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 707
Location: Arkansas
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:08 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
* I was a little disappointed to find out “Make-Out Paradise,” the fanservicey book series Jiraiya writes and Kakashi reads, was a novel. I always assumed it was a manga somehow. Like some Masakazu Katsura thing.


As probably the biggest Katsura fanboy this side of the sea, you have no idea how much that crack amused me. Laughing Jiraiya would definitely be a fan of Katsura's works, if for no reason other than the art.

It's really sad to think of Naruto being over now. Say what you will about how it started to severely drop in quality for chapters at a time after you get into Part II, there's still lots of moments and characters in this series that I just flat out adore. That and, I'm almost certain this was not only the first series that I got into that wasn't already over in Japan by the time I got started on it, I'm also pretty sure it was the first series where I got into the manga before seeing the anime. It's also the first series where I got caught up on the chapters (back around the time of the Sasuke/Itachi stuff in Part II), and stayed consistently caught up all the way to the end. Man...it's been one hell of a long journey.
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doubleO7



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 977
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Wait, was the identity of Naruto's father really stated way back in Vol.11? Confused
I don't recall that happening until Shippuden, or has it just been so long since I've read Naruto that I've started to forgotten important details?
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Gyt Kaliba



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 707
Location: Arkansas
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:44 pm Reply with quote
doubleO7 wrote:
Wait, was the identity of Naruto's father really stated way back in Vol.11? Confused
I don't recall that happening until Shippuden, or has it just been so long since I've read Naruto that I've started to forgotten important details?


It's not outright stated, but it became very, very. VEERRRYYYY obvious a lot earlier on than it was ever outright stated. Kishimoto was never the best at foreshadowing without it becoming too obvious, as later seen again with Tobi's true identity. Anime smile;
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:18 pm Reply with quote
Gyt Kaliba wrote:

It's not outright stated, but it became very, very. VEERRRYYYY obvious a lot earlier on than it was ever outright stated. Kishimoto was never the best at foreshadowing without it becoming too obvious, as later seen again with Tobi's true identity. Anime smile;


Which he then tried to circumvent through a horrendously convoluted set of circumstances of which no one was buying. Seriously, it's funny how when Kishimoto was trying to go complex all it did was make things muddy or bizarre
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animalia555



Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 467
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:51 pm Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:
Gyt Kaliba wrote:

It's not outright stated, but it became very, very. VEERRRYYYY obvious a lot earlier on than it was ever outright stated. Kishimoto was never the best at foreshadowing without it becoming too obvious, as later seen again with Tobi's true identity. Anime smile;


Which he then tried to circumvent through a horrendously convoluted set of circumstances of which no one was buying. Seriously, it's funny how when Kishimoto was trying to go complex all it did was make things muddy or bizarre

I was probably the only person who actually thought that even in Naruto no one could survive being crushed in half.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 1301
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Strong aspects of Naruto manga:

1) while there are serious issues with believability at some points (see the list of negatives below), overall this is one of the most calculated and thought out works (only Hunter X Hunter can be compared among all of famous long-running manga). Clever, multi-layered tactics and strategy in both fights and big-scale story;

2) great pseudo-science development as explanation of magic (again, only Hunter X Hunter can compete in the level of details and nuance);

3) not just cool fights, but great and creepy magical powers of both villains and protagonists;

4) much of the story is super-dark and incrediblycruel to characters mentally, not just (even more than) physically. It goes to unthinkable extremes in this more than any other big-scale manga. Also, unlike other big-scale mangas, this one does not afraid to have some major characters to spoiler[die and never return; like Jiraya. One Piece is not an example since Luffy's brother was obviously introduced shortly before being killed, only for the sake of that, and not for standalone role in the story other than that.];

5) there were countless mangas about swordsmen/samurai, but very few projects where ninjas were the subject; it is more original in than sense than average;

6) it is highly educational in truly Japanese, pre-Buddism folklore on smaller level. And it is combined with larger scale Yin and Yang Chinese philosophy of endless circle/swirl which goes in through every aspect of Naruto in both story/characters and art;

7) philosophies of villains are quire versatile and so well developed sometimes that you start to believe that they are right and that Naruto fights for wrong, vain idealistic cause;

8) sometimes the art is really great.


Weak aspects of Naturo manga:

1) it sometimes overly overt and explanatory in the words of characters (only to be topped by Hunter X Hunter, though in different way);

2) blatantly moralistic sometimes, there is little subtlety, if any, in how author shows morale of the story;

3) even though author tries so much for everything to be explained, connected well and reasonable within limits of the settings, ultimately it is not possible (spoiler[e.g. 14 y.o. Tobi all of sudden having ultimate sharingan swirling-to-different-dimension powers and evenly fighting with Naruto's father is one of the things you hardly believe]);

4) leading characters are not very interesting at all; female character Sakura has especially suffered from horrible shonen cliché as being useless and violent most of the time;

5) sometimes the fights are so messy that you could not understand what is going on in the art exactly.

So, as you see, it is totally understandable that many may not like this manga, despite its virtues; the criticisms are perfectly reasonable and absolutely legitimate. That said, the listed strong aspects of the manga are probably what has made public to rate it slightly better than, for example, Dragon Ball.


Last edited by MaxSouth on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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malvarez1



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 965
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:43 pm Reply with quote
Wow, this is awesome. I can't wait to see you cover Act II. Should be interesting.

And BTW, I loved Guardians of the Galaxy. I'd recommend you watch it before Avengers 2, just in case continuity happens.
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bleachj0j



Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 814
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:13 pm Reply with quote
This reminds me why the first part of Naruto is so great. Part 2 just kind of loses itself along the way, and just sort of plods along at times. Sometimes it feels like thing are happening with no planning. Take the latter part of the Ninja War for example.

One big criticism I had with Part 2 and why I didn't follow nearly as much was the DBZ like power ups Naruto and Sauske were getting. In part 1 it just felt more like we were watching Naruto take gradual steps, then he gets like huge steps in power in part 2. He just lost that underdog quality I always rooted for.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 1301
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:30 pm Reply with quote
Another thing is I would like to comment on is that I see mentions of One Piece in relation to Naruto coming to an end.

Comparisons to One Piece only have very little sense. Many have called for it to end, too, but this manga has totally different structure than Naruto.

Naruto has distinct classic three-part story: the beginning (before the time gap), the development (after the time gap and before the war), and the culmination, where everything is resolved, explained, all questions answered.

It was evident from very beginning that Naruto is meant to end. It should not be manga that would drag forever just for sake of milking money for the publisher. While some complained that the ending was dragged, in reality, with closer look, it was not, as while it went through all of the layers it covered everything that would be left unexplained if the last part would be any simpler and shorter. Kishimoto has ended the manga once everything was covered, he will not do anything with it further (not personally as author at least), he will not artificially continue this thing.

One Piece, however, is adventure, it can continue eternally without declining in quality or any urge to move big-scale story forward (which almost never moves despite 17 years already passed).

So there is no need for One Piece to end at all; it can continue forever and be as enjoyable and fun as it ever was.
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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 1764
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
"If everyone likes it, it can't be that good.”


Careful there, Jason. Don't start getting all "People don't know what's good for them" snobby all of a sudden. Granted, I also tend to go towards the lesser known stuff as much as possible, but I won't diss the popular stuff just for being popular.

Anyway, I only checked out Naruto regularly via the anime, and even then it was for only about 52 episodes, stopping after the first round of Chuunin Exam fights. Still, I've kept up with it on the side by way of my friends keeping up with it regularly & keeping me informed, as well as the occasional viewing of a new chapter or anime episode. Part 1 especially was just outright excellent work for a Shonen Jump title, with great characters, exciting fights, & a real sense of importance in what was going on. The "Saving Sasuke Arc", as it was called back when it was happening, was easily the best portion of Part 1 (it even gave Naruto the sole time it was the #1 overall manga in Jump in 2005, the only time One Piece wasn't on top). Kishimoto just had a lot of imagination & a real willingness to go to wherever he wanted when it came to how each ninja fights.

That said, I do think he always had a problem with making some side characters too cool & then doing nothing with them. A good example would be Anko during the Chuunin Exam, followed by her being utterly useless once her stuff with Orochimaru was done with, but my #1 example would have to be Shino. Without a doubt Shino is probably my absolute favorite Naruto character, yet he had essentially no importance whatsoever in any way; his biggest moment in Part 1 (& possibly the entire manga) was easily his Chuunin Exam fight, which was covered by Jason (the "beetles burrowing into your opponents’ arms and blowing them up from the inside" moment). It was like Kishimoto accidentally made Shino way too awesome & badass at that exact moment & was afraid to use him in any notable way ever again, lest he inadvertently make Naruto & the others look pathetic in comparison. Seriously, it would take anime fillers to actually utilize Shino in any real way.

Quote:
The manga has passed its early “in danger of getting canceled” phase


Reading this did make me realize another reason why the Zabuza/Haku story is still one of the absolute best parts of the entire manga: Kishimoto took the idea of cancellation very seriously & decided to put his all into the manga right away. Unlike titles like One Piece or Saint Seiya, which admittedly do take a good bit to go from "really good" to "really damn excellent", Naruto starts off with a truly awesome first (major) story arc that makes you want to keep reading/watching & see what can come next. I would guess that Kishimoto decided that his direct opposition would be One Piece, which was a hit from day one (let alone two years in), so he didn't hold back when beginning Naruto; he went full-bore into the best he had right at that moment.

Looking forward to seeing how exactly you manage to devour all of Part 2 in just one day, Jason.
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