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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:08 am Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
Broadcast version of Nura: Rise of the Yokai clan, both seasons, with no mention prior to release of that fact.

...and now this. As well as their responses to the issues.

I don't know who to blame, Toei or Viz. However if the masters were same ones as given to Italy, it's Viz.


Yeah this, and their Dragonball 3-in-1 rerelease which were explicitly labeled on the volumes as "uncut" were in fact still censored and which they had to admit, only over twitter when one user pointed out a comparison pic with the Japanese version. To be fair they do publish other titles that are uncut, and in this release, baby Goku's crotch was uncensored which they pointed out as "See? Uncut!".. until they backtracked given the other evidence, like how Bulma's breasts, middle-finger, cigarettes were still censored or edited. It's as if the staff didn't know how the originals were supposed to look like.

And I think that kind of ignorance of not knowing how it should look, coupled with incompetence at Subatomic Digital might explain the Sailor Moon issues (as well as accepting the wrong masters for Nura) *IF* they really had received subpar masters from Toei, it's still their responsibility to check and push back on Toei asking why the European DVD masters were much better.


Quote:
I don't know how much goodwill this company still has left among returning customers. Enough to redeem itself for them to trust it again? No idea, I don't buy manga from them anymore, haven't for a long time. I only felt resignation reading this thread as I had feared something similar when first heard it was licensed by Viz.

I do know that I'm glad it was NISA who got Cardcaptor Sakura, and not Viz...

Me too. As far as loosing goodwill, I'm not so sure. Perhaps this SM release is the one that makes people aware, or perhaps not. Before this, no one outside of a small group of hardcore fans actually cared or even noticed edited releases. But given the huge blowback, especially with Amazon reviews, which makes a larger difference to casual fans than ANN or otaku blogs, it may finally make people a bit more wary and I hope it can push Viz to be more attentive.




Kosaka wrote:
Here's a link to an Amazon.com review that I think is good, and has some good comments. (Unfortunately, you have to cut-and-paste the URLs since they aren't links.)

Customer Review — Sailor Moon by Viz, a complete and utter disaster., November 7, 2014:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R123Y8PP112G85/

Wow. That's fantastic review detailing all the issues, with lots of comparison pics. I was wondering what the complaints about DVD "pillarboxing" were about since that is what you would expect for a 4:3 footage played back on 16:9 screen. It's a bit of a misnomer, but now that I know... uggh. They mentioned in the interview they won't do that for the next sets, but they'll still be using the same crap BD "remaster" downscaled on DVD.

As the reviewer mentions, the more fancy Italian release is an alternative if you don't need English dubs.

His last point really puts it all into perspective: Viz BD vs Fanmade upscale:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=99859
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:22 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
Kosaka wrote:
Here's a link to an Amazon.com review that I think is good, and has some good comments. (Unfortunately, you have to cut-and-paste the URLs since they aren't links.)

Customer Review — Sailor Moon by Viz, a complete and utter disaster., November 7, 2014:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R123Y8PP112G85/

Wow. That's fantastic review detailing all the issues, with lots of comparison pics. I was wondering what the complaints about DVD "pillarboxing" were about since that is what you would expect for a 4:3 footage played back on 16:9 screen. It's a bit of a misnomer, but now that I know... uggh. They mentioned in the interview they won't do that for the next sets...

I've only seen the BD footage and so was also kind not sure what the described problem with the DVDs was. Now that I know, I can't believe how badly this has been done and makes the "collector's edition" comment even more repugnant. Those DVDs are without question broken products and Viz refuses to take any responsibility for taking people's money in exchange for garbage.
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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:51 am Reply with quote
DJStarstryker wrote:
I really don't understand why the pillarboxing complaining is so loud here. I'd figure on ANN, any fans big enough of anime who want to buy it would want to watch anime in their correct aspect ratio. The DVD's pillarboxing is only a problem if you want to stretch the image. There is zero problem if your TV/player is set in 16:9 mode.

I think that the problem is that when you watch the DVD on a 4:3 screen you have black bars on the side from the pillarboxing and the black bars on the top and bottom that you normally get when watching a 16:9 image.
So the actual image is shrunk and fills only a bit more than half of the screen.
People watching the DVD on a 16:9 screen would probably never notice the pillarboxing because those pillars are normally added by the player or the TV for a 4:3 DVD.

I think that Viz feels that not many people are using 4:3 screens and doing a replacement program would not be worth the expense.
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Felis



Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:26 pm Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:
Just going to play devil's advocate here but how do we know the US got the same Masters as those other countries. After all the US is in the same region as Japan and there is the whole fear of reverse importation. I can certainly see the US being given worse masters.


Why would Toei keep separate sets of 'good' and 'bad' masters around, instead of just one good master set?


According to this post on the blu-ray forums, Toei does have two different masters of Sailor Moon.

From the blu-ray forums:
Quote:
That was just re-posted elsewhere. Both posts are a translation of parts of an interview with the producers of the Mexican DVDs. In it they state that Toei really DO have two masters, one that they consider a "remastered" one that they were very reluctant to hand over, and another ancient one that is kept on Betacam tapes.

Basically, the Mexicans fought very hard with Toei to get the remastered version (which is obviously the version that is found on the Japanese/Italian DVDs), as the other was degraded and ugly. In the end they won out and managed to strike a deal with Toei for it.


I didn't see this posted yet, and I thought this was interesting if it is true.

Edit: The translation of the Mexican interview can be found here and here. The interview/translation of it is from 2012.
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Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 897
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:13 pm Reply with quote
Hahahaha, those questions were brutal.
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Dfens



Joined: 08 Feb 2013
Posts: 450
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:00 pm Reply with quote
All I can say is wow this podcast was hard to listen to in the fact that Viz just basically should have never made any comment if their attitude was we did nothing wrong all is fine, you paying customers are just picky.

And thanks for that Amazon link it's what everyone should read if they are thinking about buying this series. Me personally I was thinking about it since I haven't seen the series since I was a kid and I'm willing to pay top dollar for a series but it better look amazing. If it looked like the Italian or Japanese release then I would have been perfectly fine with the quality.

This release is a embarrassment and if this is the best they can do then they should have never released it at all.

Too many companies think that by putting something on Blu Ray that it's HD and that is what the public believes to that any crappy upscale is still better that DVD or that if it's on Blu Ray it's vastly superior which in this case is not.

It's funny Viz doesn't release that many series in the first place and other than the big hits like Naruto and Bleach etc, they should have made dam sure Sailor Moon liked perfect.
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WitchWatcher



Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:23 pm Reply with quote
shamisen the great wrote:
I guess it sucks, but after so many years waiting I'll take what I can get. Viz doesn't have a history of quality video releases so my expectations were low to begin with. This doesn't excuse them and I don't like their evasiveness in this interview. That said, my main concern now is that this will hurt sales enough that they don't release the whole series. I want a legit copy of Stars so bad.


been wanting a good release of SM for awhile too, but after all that PR spin in the interview....ugh Sad
I get the feeling they know they messed up.

I would rather go without than give them money and let them think we'll just accept whatever they give us.
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mgosdin



Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 1299
Location: Kissimmee, Florida, USA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:45 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I'm going to blather again. Sorry about that.

Now that I've read thru this entire thread and the Amazon review, well all I can say is that this release was on my "Things I'd like for Christmas. " list - but not anymore.

VIZ previously hasn't been a major player in my Anime buying, but now anything they issue that I might be interested in will wait until it is fully vetted before I spend any money on it.

Gee, this Christmas is going to be light on the old billfold. Who would have thought it?

Mark Gosdin
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Pepperidge



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1095
Location: British Columbia, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:14 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
As for the streaming issue, is there no way to license something to, say, CR, exclusively for Canada, so that Hulu can maintain its US exclusivity?


An ideal solution would be Viz simply selling their Canadian streaming rights to Crunchyroll, but if they were willing to cooperate with one of their competitors in that fashion, they likely would've done so already. (Although I'm not even sure if you can call them competitors in the Canadian market when one doesn't even make their titles available here.) The problem is that US and Canadian rights are always sold together, so when Viz licenses a title they will have the streaming rights for both countries. Crunchyroll wouldn't be able to get an opportunity to gain the Canadian streaming rights from Japan as a stand alone even if they tried.

The general attitude from either Viz or their parent companies seems to find more value in sitting on Canadian rights rather than making the titles available up here.
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ailblentyn



Joined: 28 Mar 2009
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Location: body in Ohio, heart in Sydney
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:07 pm Reply with quote
Good on you, Zac, for making them squirm.
I especially relished the question that went something like: "So even though there exist releases from these exact same masters that don't show these problems, this is the best that can be done?"

The Viz line of doubling down is pretty disrespectful. Especially on the DVD borders. I mean, really.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:12 am Reply with quote
Felis wrote:
According to this post on the blu-ray forums, Toei does have two different masters of Sailor Moon.

From the blu-ray forums:
Quote:
That was just re-posted elsewhere. Both posts are a translation of parts of an interview with the producers of the Mexican DVDs. In it they state that Toei really DO have two masters, one that they consider a "remastered" one that they were very reluctant to hand over, and another ancient one that is kept on Betacam tapes.

Basically, the Mexicans fought very hard with Toei to get the remastered version (which is obviously the version that is found on the Japanese/Italian DVDs), as the other was degraded and ugly. In the end they won out and managed to strike a deal with Toei for it.


I didn't see this posted yet, and I thought this was interesting if it is true.

Edit: The translation of the Mexican interview can be found here and here. The interview/translation of it is from 2012.

Shocked Excellent detective work! I wonder if Viz even knew about this. They seem adamant--even posting sample images on their neonalley blog--that the older crappy Japanese masters were THE masters. I think this explains the massive difference between the screenshots they claimed were the Japanese masters and the masters everyone else is seeing on current international (European and Latin American) releases.

Here's the other key point he cites from the Mexican producers:
Quote:
They state that there were two conditions to this. Obviously one was that it was going to cost them a lot more. The other was that they had to leave the video quality untouched so that it remained the best it could be.


So, I can see three scenarios:
1) Viz is completely ignorant of the existence of the remastered version
2) Viz is not ignorant, but refused to pay a lot more, or comply with those conditions above
3) A combination of (1) and (2) where: those higher ups would refused to pay for, or comply with the conditions for the remastered version, and lower level staff are kept ignorant of the deal, and the fact there were two different masters.

It almost sounds like (2) however, since if you noticed they kept on saying, these were the masters that they were given, and that this is what they had to work with.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:10 am Reply with quote
I wouldn't say that Viz cheaped out. In reality redubbing more than 150 episodes cannot come cheap at all. So it's understandable they didn't want to pay more for the video masters. It is unfortunate because while the Italian dvds look good, they have the same old stupid unfaithful dub from the nineties. At least Viz's edition has a new faithful dub. And that in my view is a definite plus. I think it all came down to this : show we spend the money on redubbing or on getting new video masters ? They went for the first option. We just can't get the best of both worlds.
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UseY0ur1llusi0n



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:52 am Reply with quote
.

.


Last edited by UseY0ur1llusi0n on Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WitchWatcher



Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:44 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
Here's the other key point he cites from the Mexican producers:
Quote:
They state that there were two conditions to this. Obviously one was that it was going to cost them a lot more. The other was that they had to leave the video quality untouched so that it remained the best it could be.


So, I can see three scenarios:
1) Viz is completely ignorant of the existence of the remastered version
2) Viz is not ignorant, but refused to pay a lot more, or comply with those conditions above
3) A combination of (1) and (2) where: those higher ups would refused to pay for, or comply with the conditions for the remastered version, and lower level staff are kept ignorant of the deal, and the fact there were two different masters.

It almost sounds like (2) however, since if you noticed they kept on saying, these were the masters that they were given, and that this is what they had to work with.


that would be interesting if there 2 different masters.
that clean opener looked really good though before viz worked their magic.


Last edited by WitchWatcher on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:02 pm Reply with quote
Cptn_Taylor wrote:
I wouldn't say that Viz cheaped out. In reality redubbing more than 150 episodes cannot come cheap at all. So it's understandable they didn't want to pay more for the video masters. It is unfortunate because while the Italian dvds look good, they have the same old stupid unfaithful dub from the nineties. At least Viz's edition has a new faithful dub. And that in my view is a definite plus. I think it all came down to this : show we spend the money on redubbing or on getting new video masters ? They went for the first option. We just can't get the best of both worlds.

This is being way too charitable; it's assuming that it's completely impossible to do both and why should we think that? Not to mention that Viz went to the expense of dubbing Sailor Moon because I'm sure they think they've got a big seller on their hands. If they expect it to be lucrative, why are they cutting corners?

There's no escaping that a very important aspect of this release is not up to the quality it should be.
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