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Pokemon (TV).


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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 1363
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:21 pm Reply with quote


Pokemon (TV)

Genres: adventure, comedy, tournament
Themes: monsters, trainer battles

Plot Summary: A young boy named Ash Ketchum embarks on a journey to become a "Pokemon Master" with his first Pokemon, Pikachu. Joining him on his travels are Brock, a girl-obsessed Rock Pokemon Trainer, and Misty, a tomboyish Water Pokemon Trainer who may have a crush on him. Ash and Co. end up traveling through various regions, including Kanto, the Orange Islands, and Johto, and then enter the Pokemon League competitions there. Along the way, they run into many confrontations with Jessie, James, and Meowth, a trio of Pokemon thieves who are apart of an evil organization called "Team Rocket". But everytime Team Rocket try to do their evil deeds, they fail thanks to Ash and his Pokemon.
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(I diligently browsed through all of the twenty seven pages of forum search results on Pokemon, and found no proper general thread about it, so lets make it here.)

I have never watched Pokemon, but the fact that this franchise has cumulatively generated over thousand of typical 25-minutes episodes (or equivalent) fascinates me.

Considering how mediocre ANN ratings are for this show (just "Decent", usually), I wonder if there are people who actually watched all of it -- "completists", true fans of the show. And maybe they can explain why it is so successful, and not that bad at all.

Cute little beasts, but what else?

How this project compares to other giant projects?

Some wrote that the first season was great, but second season got worse. Is it really true, as many more seasons were made after that and the show felt itself just fine?

People were bombarding this forum ten years ago with questions "Will it ever end?" Do authors plan another few hundred (thousand) of episodes, or it is mostly done deal?
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12skippy21



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 785
Location: York, England
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:40 pm Reply with quote
I find it interesting to start a topic on Pokemon but I do not think there is much room for discussion on the topic of quality.

I was a young teenager when the cards becamse a fad and so everyone started talking about it. Naturally I joined in and got as far as the Johto league. The thing I remember most about Pokemon is actually that an ice cream driver gave out free ice creams for good cards. I gave away a shiny bellsprout for a 99. Strange what you remember as an adult.

Regarding the show though I remember nothing, it had a catchy tune and the overall nostagic factor, similar to Fresh Prince of Bel Air or South Park. Neither stand up now. I have seen the odd episode of the new series' but it is just the same stuff but they are stretching a bit with the Pokemon types. I do not think it offers much in the way of kids entertainment these days either as shows become progressively more adult and it does not have any overarching story like Naruto or Ben 10. They never did anything fresh with the anime, change ages, create different situations etc.

The games are still selling though so maybe there is still a market but I was caught up in its heyday so hard to judge. I would be worried for the sanity of anyone that has manged to 'watch it all'!
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:14 am Reply with quote
MaxSouth wrote:
Some wrote that the first season was great, but second season got worse. Is it really true, as many more seasons were made after that and the show felt itself just fine?


The first series is arguably the worst, in my opinion. It was made under the pretense it was just going to be a year/two year long show before the entire franchise exploded in popularity. As a result they rushed through most of the content. Satoshi didn't even win half his badges legitimately, but got them out of either pity or because he beat Team Rocket, which isn't much of an accomplishment.

The best season I'd say is Diamond & Pearl, followed by XY, followed by Advanced Generation, followed by Best Wishes, and then the original. Diamond & Pearl had really strong characters and creativity to it, and XY is basically emulating a lot of what made Diamond & Pearl great, though not quite as well in certain areas. It also has elements of Advanced Generation.
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MaxSouth



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 1363
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:32 am Reply with quote
Thank for the expert opinions. Maybe someday I will be brave enough to watch at least some of it. Just to know how it was.
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otacon23



Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:18 am Reply with quote
I really hate the new Pokemon: Sun and Moon.
Animation sucks balls and characters look too cheezy.

When Naruto had fillers, the animation would look cheap. I thought because it's not part of the actual story, they just hired cheap animators from another country to do it.

It's like looking at Windows 7 logo and icons (has detail) then looking at Windows 10 logo and icons. All flat color looking.
Seeing the new Pokemon, no Shade detail in the characters, new character design makes them look younger and too....kiddie.

When Dragon Ball Super came out, many people complained about the animation quality and story (me as well). The company replied asking for people to give the animators a chance because they have many new animators who are still new to drawing and the project itself. (or similar)

I hope many people complain about the lack in animation quality to OLM Inc so they can change animators and give their animators a kick in the butt to get their quality up to standard. Really annoying looking at Ash's flat grey-black hair with no definition.

Anybody else agree with the quality?
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15434
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:23 pm Reply with quote
You might not like this, but I am going to strongly disagree with you on this topic, I in fact that so far it looks good. I actually can see where you are coming from, the character designs seem to be less complex, and can appear to go off model mid movement if you pause the video, but rather than a flaw I think that it is its greatest asset.

Okay, first I want to ask you what you think animation is? Is it a lot of pretty pictures that we move through very quickly that creates the illusion that we are seeing a moving story? That is kind the assumed explanation and has been what dictates what a good quality for a number of people, but I think that it is kind of an oversimplification that actually misses the important part. Animation means to breath life into something, and after pondering the topic for some time I think it goes beyond that. If you have seen a live action version of animated series and felt like it lost some charm, you might have noticed that some things can only be done animated (cartoon). For that reason I think that you are actually wasting the potential animated work if you are simply trying to emulate what can be done live action that there is something animation can do better.

The thing animation does better in my opinion s that it can directly convey a strong sense of emotion in the movement of characters (or even objects), the real potential of animation is that unlike other mediums the characters don't have to be static. This is what is being emphasised with the new style of Sun and Moon, it has thrown away the more static designs of before, and brought in very elastic designs that really emphasise any emotion it wants to put into a scene. In actual fact the animation is incredibly fluid, and in actual fact is not cheap.

You say that characters look younger and too kiddie, but I have to remind you that this is a kids show, it is watched by a huge audience of kids, and has done so for many years. Ash/Satoshi never ages, and although from a story standpoint I that it is a stupid idea to have kept him in and not allow to progress, I have actually come around here. His more fluid and younger looking design emphasis him not just as a character, but an idea of a character, a young audience member sit in, or maybe a young at heart audience member who just likes Pikachu. He may not be the character I knew, and really I am someone who started not watching too much around the time May was introduced, and pretty much almost entirely stopped by the time Dawn was in. I have not really been watching the anime for some time because I grew frustrated with an actual amount of movement in the story, which is a shame because I have always considered myself a fan of the franchise.

This year has been big for Pokémon, actually I would go back a couple years ago when we had the release of Pokémon Origins, a range of shorts that more directly translated events from the games. With everything I said so far it might seem strange that I was more than happy with what might be described as more static versions S&M animation, but I think that with being a translation of the old games that it very fitting. Pokémon Generations of this year has also been pretty great, as we have more similar animated versions of scenes or implied scenes from the games, some of them have been great, my favourite being the Old Chateau , they are a great translation of the games. But here is the thing, the anime is not the games, they are close but there are some differences. Sure much is the same like most of the facts about the Pokémon, but compare the two and you some disparity with things like sizes, and certain natures (like sound Pokémon make). You also see some pretty clear differences between characters that might exist in both games the games and anime, like Brock might be a bit of a goofball chef breeder who happens to be a Gym leader in the anime, but in the game he was a pretty tough guy who had youngsters in his Gym. And do we have to talk about Red and Ash differences.

But this is just getting to a point, being pretty excited about the franchise this year I happened to catch that mentioned the Sun and Moon anime. I was actually not going to watch it because I stopped watching the anime ages back and I would see no reason to try and catch up or jump back in now, but I decided to and was kind of surprised. Apparently X and Y has had some really pretty animation pieces with battles and the like which were seriously making me ponder if I should track down some of the nicer looking anime episodes to watch, because it looks great. It is pretty clear that in recent years the studio put more into quality. But the video was also on about how people were reacting badly to the new style, but also that the person in the video was saying that the animation looks good, and I agree. Apparently the studio actually upgraded to new digital software that, and they have actual invested in this new animation focused approach which will give more personalities for the movement of characters, and it has all been enough for me actually decide to jump in. I like this approach which focuses with the anime what the anime itself can do.
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otacon23



Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:02 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:


The thing animation does better in my opinion s that it can directly convey a strong sense of emotion in the movement of characters (or even objects), the real potential of animation is that unlike other mediums the characters don't have to be static. This is what is being emphasised with the new style of Sun and Moon, it has thrown away the more static designs of before, and brought in very elastic designs that really emphasise any emotion it wants to put into a scene. In actual fact the animation is incredibly fluid, and in actual fact is not cheap.



I can see where you are getting at. To probably show more emotion and give them the elastic design, they leave out details. I can see the fluid-like movements. They did this with a couple of Naruto episodes where people just went WTF?!

Here is XY and Z and Sun and Moon side by side


You can see Ash's nose, hair, shirt has Shadows on the top pic (XY and Z) and his hair is more..."sharp" while Sun and Moon (bottom) lacks shadows and the roundish hair makes him more younger. But as you said they changed software and they went for more fluid like movement.

I prefer the bit more static look with the old software. Not a fan of the fluid-like movement. Even though he still is 10 years old, the details on the characters of xy and z, kind of gives the characters a mature look as they are improving on being better pokemon trainers.
Also there is still plenty of anime that put in these details such as Haikyuu. I love ufotable and their animation and also software they use. Sun and Moon might take me a while to get use to looking at the characters without any shadows but rather than maturing to be a better pokemon trainer, he just looks like he is back at square one.

You don't really need to watch the rest. It's really all the same. He finds new island, he brings pikachu, he captures new pokemon, he battles in a tournament.

I have a bit of OCD with NFC (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with Need For Closure). Hoping he will actually become a pokemon master. 20 years later, I am still looking at my watch saying 'hurry up' Very Happy hahaha. I tried to stop...but can't. Very Happy
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15434
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:30 pm Reply with quote
otacon23 wrote:
I prefer the bit more static look with the old software. Not a fan of the fluid-like movement. Even though he still is 10 years old, the details on the characters of xy and z, kind of gives the characters a mature look as they are improving on being better pokemon trainers.
Also there is still plenty of anime that put in these details such as Haikyuu. I love ufotable and their animation and also software they use. Sun and Moon might take me a while to get use to looking at the characters without any shadows but rather than maturing to be a better pokemon trainer, he just looks like he is back at square one.

Haikyuu and ufotable are also really expensive, that it might not be logistical for a weekly show aimed at kids where they think the pure emotion they can pack into a scene is more important than how pretty it is. That video I mentioned before said something about apparently a lot of animators are really into the change and think that it opens a number of doors for them. General ideas could be a long the lines Yokai Watch has been stealing their thunder a bit, so the Pokémon anime needed to move forward.

otacon23 wrote:
I have a bit of OCD with NFC (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with Need For Closure). Hoping he will actually become a pokemon master. 20 years later, I am still looking at my watch saying 'hurry up' Very Happy hahaha. I tried to stop...but can't. Very Happy

If you have seen a recent Did You Know movies about Pokémon, you probably should see that it is never going to happen, in fact the video is titled: Why Ash Will NEVER be a Pokemon Master!, there are some interesting or unfortunate information in it. For years I have actually been of the opinion if they won't age Ash up, then they need to give him the boot and bring in someone fresh in, probably keep a Pikachu but have a new dynamic. But the move to making him look less mature to stop the effect that was giveng him the illusion of growing, I think might work in favour.

Pokémon actually does mean quite a bit to me, it was actually the first anime I watched. The episode was the one with the Pokémon school and Cubone.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Eh, I'm with otacon23 on this one.

Ash's new design looks bloody awful. The first pic I saw of it, I was like "EW. THIS IS NEW ASH!?" It's so lazy and he looks weird!

Why didn't they keep the original design? o___O There was nothing wrong with it.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15434
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:48 pm Reply with quote
If you are looking at just a static image.
I might need to find some examples outside of just this show.

Okay, which show is the better animated and character designed.

Flip Flappers:


Dance with Devils:


Dance with the Devils is largely forgettable for its animation and character design, but Flip Flappers has been able to do quite a bit with its somewhat offbeat animation. You might think that it is being unfair, like the character design has nothing to do with the design of the characters designs, but I argue against that. See, Dance with Devils is kind of generally pretty with its character designs, but it is kind of oversaturated with its character details and its design just does not lend itself to the smooth and expressive animation that Flip Flappers can pull off.

Maybe you think I am wrong on that, or maybe I have no idea what I am talking. Then, I don't know what to say.


Last edited by DuskyPredator on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:18 pm Reply with quote
No, I get what you're saying.....it's the same reason shows like Adventure Time and Steven Universe can do a lot with their animation; simple character designs.

I don't like either one of those though. Anime hyper

I do like Flip Flappers's style....but Papika and Cocona look WAY better than Sun/Moon's Ash. They have simple faces.....but at least the hair LOOKS like hair. Also that's the only form Papika and Cocona have since they have only one show. If they looked more detailed in a previous show, it would be just as jarring.
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otacon23



Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:27 am Reply with quote
[quote="DuskyPredator"]
otacon23 wrote:
If you have seen a recent Did You Know movies about Pokémon, you probably should see that it is never going to happen, in fact the video is titled: Why Ash Will NEVER be a Pokemon Master!, there are some interesting or unfortunate information in it. For years I have actually been of the opinion if they won't age Ash up, then they need to give him the boot and bring in someone fresh in, probably keep a Pikachu but have a new dynamic. But the move to making him look less mature to stop the effect that was giveng him the illusion of growing, I think might work in favour.


Yea I was guessing that. Once he becomes a master, that's it. Anime over, game over. It kinda did seem like he was aging everytime he came home but yea, just to keep him looking the same age..the new animation does work in favor...and more "kid" friendly.
Though wonder how many adults are still watching pokemon now like me. We're not kids anymore Razz

Dance with devils has better animated because of the detail but flip flappers has some details in the hair than one colour so that is fine for me.

My first anime was Astroboy in 1986-87 when I was 6-7yo. Accidently changed to the wrong cartoon channel in the morning. Next thing..I was hooked. Got into pokemon when in 1996. Next thing, kept watching it every morning. Smile But that was because I wanted to see him "Catch 'em all" Very Happy Now at 36yo...might still continue with Sun and Moon, or stick to other anime.
Will now continue to enjoy Haikyuu, the final episodes of Naruto and soon to look forward to Yomamushi Pedal S3 and Chain Chronicle.
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michaeltanzer



Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Do you think FUNimation should acquire the rights from The Pokemon Company to license Pokemon Sun & Moon in both Sub & Dub versions? I think they should do it, but IF they license it, they have to use the Original Japanese character names for sure!

MY CAST CHOICES WOULD BE:
Brina Palencia : Satoshi
Cynthia Cranz : Musashi
Jerry Jewell : Kojiro
Todd Haberkorn : Nyarth
J. Michael Tatum : Professor Kukui
Monica Rial : Lillie
Brittney Karbowski : Mao
Cherami Leigh : Mamane
Sean Schemmel : Kaki
Carrie Savage : Suiren
Vic Mignogna : Rotom Pokedex
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PannenkoekenNL



Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 28
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:52 pm Reply with quote
It won't happen, the Pokémon anime is aimed at children. The Pokémon Company International doesn't even allow dual audio releases of the movies.
https://twitter.com/AskJeromeMaz/status/759482515958669312
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michaeltanzer



Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:12 pm Reply with quote
PannenkoekenNL wrote:
It won't happen, the Pokémon anime is aimed at children. The Pokémon Company International doesn't even allow dual audio releases of the movies.
https://twitter.com/AskJeromeMaz/status/759482515958669312


Yeah, FUNimation SHOULD license it from The Pokemon Company anyhow! Because I want to hear the FUNi dub of Pokemon Sun & Moon sounds like!
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