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mrsatan wrote:

As soon as I heard "BBC" I knew what kind of slant this story would have. The UK has always had a bizarre, perverted view of anime and manga and they also have a pedophile hysteria going because of that Jimmy Saville scandal and the fallout of all that. Fathers taking pictures of their own children are being accused of being a "nonce" over there now.
So hacks like this author can get all kinds of revenue by feeding into that hysteria, creating a new boogeyman for the British people to fear-- The Lolicon.

So this is a normal thing with the BBC? I always had the impression that BBC is better than this when it comes to social topics and cultural appreciation.

At least, this is from the perspective of an American who gets BBC via BBC America and what the BBC feels like putting on the website.

Broly The Saiyan wrote:

Yeah it seems people now a days think fictional characters are actual people its like they can't tell the difference from reality and fiction

Maybe these people think the way the Sonichu author thinks fictional characters are real but in another dimension. The Toon World's PR people must be nervous.

wertwow wrote:

This article/radio piece is just one in a long line of articles on this topic by the BBC (there was an hour long show a few months ago which had a long piece on love plus). The fact that the BBC seemingly refuses to produce any positive article or programme on the subject(anime/manga) only demonstrates the agenda they have.

Yeesh. Maybe it's envy that anime had managed to take off and become popular, considering BBC, by producing TV programming, is in competition with anime, even if indirectly, and sees anime (and manga, by extension), as enemies to be villified.

As this is the first I've heard about BBC and the opinions of key people on Japanese media, I'd guess that these pieces don't really have much effect on people at large. Then again, we have a post stating the UK has always had a shaky mainstream view of anime and manga.

Quote:

Yeesh. Maybe it's envy that anime had managed to take off and become popular, considering BBC, by producing TV programming, is in competition with anime, even if indirectly, and sees anime (and manga, by extension), as enemies to be villified.

In hindsight to be fair to the BBC, its not necessarily their fault that they have had no programming, recently, putting the medium in a positive light. The BBC (especially radio 4), as far as I know, audience is mainly middle age and for the most part have little interest in anime and manga or learning anything about it. Its little wander that in a secdual dominated by shows like bargain hunt, that we see nothing dedicated to a medium which is mainly for enjoyed by a younger audience (yes I am generalizing here). The same problem also exist with video games (although there have been some good pieces on video games on BBC news and Radio 4 recently) as well as being a problem with UK old form media in general (papers like the daily mail). Point is its easier to make up a scare story about something your viewership doesn't understand rather than to properly explore it.

For the most part the BBC is generally pretty good at exploring other cultures. Its main problem is it doesn't understand youth cultures quite so much, or doesn't even try to. Although the BBC in the past have at least tried https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g89WoIJGY0M.

Ah, I get it now. I always had the impression that the BBC's audience was everybody, as among its programming, I'm most exposed to stuff like Doctor Who, Top Gear, Planet Earth, and Orphan Black. Also, the BBC is government-funded, so I also thought that it would be like the United States' PBS, which is geared towards anyone, or NPR, which is aimed at intellectuals. (You can tell I am an American because I refer to BBC in the singular sense, not plural.)

So does this mean that British programming for young people would be found mainly on non-BBC channels?

Drac wrote:

Vice also explored "Hentai" and the lack of tentacle porn recently too. Anime and Manga will always be brought up in these contexts because these news outlets know people can't get enough of stupid tired memes.

"But classical Japanese art is one thing—a thing to be enjoyed by men and women who own personalized wax seals and imported antique katanas. Cartoons, however, are for kids—surely?"

It's literally the "Cartoons aren't just for kids anymore!" line. That's when you know the article is misplaced by 15 years and is entirely worthless.

leafy sea dragon wrote:

Ah, I get it now. I always had the impression that the BBC's audience was everybody, as among its programming, I'm most exposed to stuff like Doctor Who, Top Gear, Planet Earth, and Orphan Black. Also, the BBC is government-funded, so I also thought that it would be like the United States' PBS, which is geared towards anyone, or NPR, which is aimed at intellectuals. (You can tell I am an American because I refer to BBC in the singular sense, not plural.)

So does this mean that British programming for young people would be found mainly on non-BBC channels?

Other than the few larger shows that you mention (doctor who, Top Gear Etc) which are really for all ages, the UK is shockingly bad when it comes to programming for "young adults". Unless you like crime Drama or Reality TV, there really isn't much else.

Way off topic but never had heard of Orphan black before and it seems that its a show produced by BBC America, wasn't aware that they had original programming.

Last edited by jl07045 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total

wertwow wrote:

However What I do have a problem with though is how the article is framed (especially the web version), its clear from both versions that the author/presenter clearly supports banning the material. I find it especially galling that in the last few lines of the article he almost equates Manga Fans to child porn defenders (or at least people who ignore the issue).

I've only read the article that was in the BBC webpage, but I don't see the wording there as author purposefully supporting the banning although the choice of headline might make it look that way. He is looking at this from a perspective of an "ordinary person" who will likely find sexualizing both a 10 year old and a 15 year old really creepy. The author provides arguments for the other side as well, but it's not his intention to change the attitudes of his readers.

I have to say that the knee-jerk reaction here is almost as bad as it was on /a/.

wertwow wrote:

Other than the few larger shows that you mention (doctor who, Top Gear Etc) which are really for all ages, the UK is shockingly bad when it comes to programming for "young adults". Unless you like crime Drama or Reality TV, there really isn't much else.

Way off topic but never had heard of Orphan black before and it seems that its a show produced by BBC America, wasn't aware that they had original programming.

BBC America has original programming? Well! That shows how little I know about BBC.

I'll take your word for it that it's mainly people older than what most anime target though. It sounds like an article like this will cause tension between some BBC-watching parents and their anime-watching offspring though.

American television is full of crime dramas and reality TV too, though those are typically aimed at wide audiences, especially reality TV. Well, not Criminal Minds, which is disturbing even for adults, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

Yeah, the author in question has stayed objective in this case. He presented both sides, he didn't make any claim that he want's a ban personally, and he doesn't smear anyone. Not every article on lolicon is going to automatically be against it.

Saying that, haven't listened to the radio broadcast yet, so that may change.

jl07045 wrote:

wertwow wrote:

However What I do have a problem with though is how the article is framed (especially the web version), its clear from both versions that the author/presenter clearly supports banning the material. I find it especially galling that in the last few lines of the article he almost equates Manga Fans to child porn defenders (or at least people who ignore the issue).

I've only read the article that was in the BBC webpage, but I don't see the wording there as author purposefully supporting the banning although the choice of headline might make it look that way. He is looking at this from a perspective of an "ordinary person" who will likely find sexualizing both a 10 year old and a 15 year old really creepy. The author provides arguments for the other side as well, but it's not his intention to change the attitudes of his readers.

I have to say that the knee-jerk reaction here is almost as bad as it was on /a/.

The radio edit I feel is even more balanced and to be fair most of my comments were knee-jerk, straight after having listened to/read the article.

Now that the segment has concluded, I wouldn't say that it was as much of a "bashing" as we initially thought it would be. Some very reasonable arguments were put forward by some of the people interviewed, such as the "reality vs fiction" divide and the lack of evidence to support the notion that prepubescent or assumed prepubescent material encourages criminal acts.

My only issue would be that although they were given air-time, James Fletcher didn't really appear to acknowledge any of the arguments and instead kept to his narrative. If he wanted to leave things as a blank slate for the audience to make up their minds, that would have been great, but at times it did feel like he was out to shame people who thought differently.

Well, what's been said has already been said, so I don't think I can add much to the discussion. Someone did bring up the 2020 Olympics and I, like many others, am truly afraid that Japan will use this as an impetus to "clean up its act" and acquiesce to international pressure.

Honestly, I can understand why people take offence at sex and anything sexual in nature. However, imposing their own moral beliefs on to others is just not kosher.

It might sound presumptuous and arrogant of me to say this, but I am grateful to my parents for raising me with a very open mind.

Cutiebunny wrote:

I also would like to point out that I would rather those that enjoy looking at erotic images of girls to have drawn characters that allow them to safely release that pent up desire instead of possibly committing a crime with a real child.

If ya think about it, supporting the junior gravure industry is also just another form of release, allowing the existence of such industry financially viable. Laughing

Greboruri wrote:

The fish market is moving in a year or two as well so they can build athlete accommodation on the site, I think.

Nah, it's because the old Tsukiji fish market is.......... old:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-29/tokyos-iconic-tsukiji-fish-market-to-be-moved/5177056

Fedora-san wrote:

walw6pK4Alo wrote:

Yeah, because one has intense focus on the subject and is done for profit.

I see. I guess I just kind of feel similar to Hameyadea then. That kind of sexualization of underage people is everywhere. So much unregulated stuff like on YouTube and even some on American media, it's just Japan found a way to monetize it. In that regard I guess I just find it a bit hard to fault those idol videos since they're just capitalizing on a niche market which Japan is pretty good at already.

Like those children beauty pageants and reality TV shows that N. America does.

Fedora-san wrote:

If it's going to exist, at least it's being regulated, rather than being random home videos on YouTube without a filter and all those pervy comments on them with no wall between the subject and the audience.

Who says that doesn't happen too?

A news crew follows around 6th grader Mai Sasaki, an 11-year-old junior idol whose father films and creates her photo books and DVD’s. In one particularly creepy scene, the cameraman father tells a lingerie-clad Mai to get on a bed and make a “lion pose.” He later jokes about how big her breasts have become.

They return to Mai Sasaki’s father, who is looking at internet sites devoted to junior idols. He mentions that some of the U-15 idol photos and DVD’s are practically porn. Apparently he doesn’t want to turn his daughter into such an idol, but he must make her photos and DVD’s a bit sexy if he wants them to sell…

After a quick look at some fans in their 30′s who love buying junior idol stuff, we are shown a photo shoot Mai Sasaki’s father is doing for a 13-year-old idol Misuzu Ashida. The girl tells the reporter that she is hoping that she can become a mainstream star through her junior idol DVD’s. Her mother, who is at the photo shoot, has a similar view and thinks that what her daughter is doing is similar to how many actresses have done sexy photos or love scenes in movies to advance their careers. The mother and daughter say that there is a limit to what they’ll approve of, at which point they’ll supposedly say no. After the release of Misuzu’s DVD they travel to Tokyo to hold an photo shoot event to which all her fans were invited.

Before gravure idols become money-makers, they have to make themselves well-known first whatever it takes, be it unregulated home videos on the Net or sold in the streets. For each one that makes it into the industry, there are countless others who operate in the unregulated wild wild west.

Hoppy800 wrote:

I also have an idea, instead of banning junior idols outright, they could sanitize it and switch the marketing to children.

Kids have small disposable income, without their parents supporting their hobbies.

Greboruri wrote:

Come on down Dr. Milton Diamond;

Dr. Milton Diamond wrote:

Nevertheless, the myth persists that an abundance of sexually explicit material invariably leads to an abundance of sexual activity and eventually rape. A variety of societal factors may relate to the decrease in sex offenses. Nevertheless, the data make clear that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan has been correlated with a marked decrease in sex offenses, particularly among juveniles as perpetrators or victims.

Chikan is a kind of rape, and that increased.

Ah, ya guys wanna hear a true story?
The Cure for the Plague Of Japanese Perverts on the Trains

The school girl beside me suddenly almost dropped her cellphone. She caught it, glanced at me kind of coyly, brushed the hair out of her eyes, and went back to thumbing her message. Which reminded me I need to send a text to my student to confirm our lesson that night. Then, suddenly she jerked, slightly, like she’d been pricked with a needle she’d been expecting. She sort of half glanced behind her, like if she were checking the shoulder of her blue jacket for lint.

Suddenly it all fell into place. His position behind me, slightly to my left, and his resistance against being moved from the position he’d coveted. I had a pretty good idea what he was up to now. At least I thought I did.

At the next station, a good number of people got off. Some from my left headed by me for the door to my right. I watched peripherally as the breacher made way for them, actually exiting the car and standing on the platform. After the last departing passenger had exited, he let a few new comers board before him. Without him there within the perimeter attesting to my civility, the first few people of the new swarm hesitated then fled to available spaces as far from the perimeter as possible. Once he re-boarded and headed back to his position behind / beside me, attesting to the safety of the area within the perimeter, the swarm behind him closed in. Again he grabbed the strap over my shoulder and let the swarm push its way by him, like a man holding a tree branch just before the edge of a cascading water fall.

That was enough confirmation for me. He was Chikan…definitely.

The high school girl was still thumbing away apparently oblivious to the efforts this Chikan was making. I had actually been pushed closer to her so that now, involuntarily, I was up against her too. My left hand, which held my briefcase, was against her thigh. Once the train started moving again, I tried to switch my briefcase to my other hand so as not to be mistaken for the one enjoying this ride too much, but it was tightly wedged against her…as was his. Judging from his height and hers, his hand had to be wedged in the crack of her ass. And with the shortness of her skirt he was probably wedged under it. How convenient for him.

I glanced down but all I could see was her navy blue skirt…then, when the train jolted a little I caught a glimpse of her white lacy underwear and a yellow hand on or in them. I couldn’t tell which it was so quick.

I had to make a decision. How much did I want to be a good Samaritan? (It has become an issue since I’ve been living here and treated in a manner that makes me actually pause and question whether I should get involved or syougannai it and mind my business…)

[Story continues in the link.]

krelyan wrote:

Fedora-san wrote:

Is there really such a difference between those things and just going to the pool or beach and seeing girls in swimsuits, though?

I dunno. Are you going to the beach to ogle children? If so, then yes, there probably isn't a difference.

Maybe it's normalized now, as per the article:

"People get sexually excited by something, then become used to it," says Tomo, who works behind the counter in one of the adult stores. "So they are always looking for something new, and get sexually excited by young, immature women."

This is what worries critics - the concern that even if no-one is harmed in the creation of sexually explicit manga, it might normalise, facilitate, or lead to an increased risk of sexual abuse.

No-one knows whether this is the case - research has been inconclusive. But many in Japan, particularly women, have a wider concern too. They see these images as part of a society that turns a blind eye to extreme pornography - often degrading to women - and the sexualisation of young people.

Actar wrote:

However, imposing their own moral beliefs on to others is just not kosher.

People around the world do it all the time, like whenever the US drone attacks a terrorist or Japan imposes capital punishment.

There are probably a dozen or so posts I'd like to reply to here, but after listening to BBC Radio 4 just under an hour ago, it was surprisingly open to other opinions on the topic with both male and female individuals supporting the right for sexualised comics and doujinshi on fictional young boys and girls (aside from Dan Kanemitsu speaking - dope).

It was bad, but not the worst I've watched or listened to on the topic.

The thing that infuriates me about this, is that the people opposing lolicon are acting only on their feelings without any scientific evidence. They have had decades to study this stuff, but as far as I know, the only study done on this subject concluded that there was no link between lolicon and child molestation.

Fedora-san wrote:

Is there really such a difference between those things and just going to the pool or beach and seeing girls in swimsuits, though?

Those girls aren't dressed in swimsuits, so that pedophiles can ogle them. That's the difference.

sonicgx11 wrote:

I find that type of stuff gross, especially when it comes to lolicon and incest, I love anime but those genres make me sick. I'm looking at you Harem authors.

I remember going through some problems in high school after my first break up, and really got into anime, and there is one that made me sick to my stomach...yasuga no sora...

But yeah I wish they banned those two genres.

"I don't like this thing. Ban it!"

You don't see any problems with this way of thinking?

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:

It's annoying when non-lolicon works are mislabled as lolicon by people with no knowledge of anime. With the exception of one tapestry, none of the art on display in the article is 'lolicon'.

Yeah, that might have been the worst part of it for me since quite a bit of what I saw was pretty standard in anime in general, regardless of genre, etc.

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