Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch
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Eldritcho
 Posts: 260 |
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Second definition:organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism Let InstallGeneru say whatever they want, as "gender equality" works just as well, if not better in some cases. |
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addiemon
Posts: 93 |
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Absolutely true: High School DxD has many "strong female characters" and it's even a decent show for its genre, but...it's definitely not "feminist." I don't know about the others, but as stated earlier, I think it's feminist due to its portrayal of how members of both sexes suffer under an inherently sexist socioeconomic system. I also think it's not very "preachy" with this message, which is nice. 
ETA:
I said as much in my response to him/her. 
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Ah, and you are the arbiter of what constitutes an unnecessary topic? How nice for you. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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As long as people stay civil about it (and civility collapsing in these situations never happens, does it?
 ), there's no problem with the feminism discussion. In fact, I think it's quite relevant, and I am finding very interesting the differing interpretations on whether or not it applies here.
I dunno; I think you may be underestimating how rare it is for male leads and overestimating how rare it is for female leads. (NOTE: I am assuming that you're only referring to anime here.) Off the top of my head I can think of at least as many examples of layered, even-handed portrayals of complex female leads as I can male leads. Granted, there aren't a lot of either that would probably meet your criteria, but there are more out there than you might realize, and sometimes in places that you might not expect. |
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Eldritcho
Posts: 260 |
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Well thats very convenient isn't it? In that case, i suppose i could say 1984 is a feminist novel because it portrays how both sexes suffer under an inherently fascist, racist, sexist, authoritarian system. But no, that work is about authoritarianism, and how everyone is beaten down by it and how it's systems work to truly undermine and control all people. Not just men, not just women, not just minorities, everyone. But because women are involved, I guess it's feminist. No, it isn't, because in that case almost every work about oppressive systems could count. Heck, almost any medieval-historical-fiction could count. Almost every cheesy young adult fiction quasi-romance in the last 10 years could count. Everything is feminist! And if everything is feminist, then what is the point of labeling things as feminist? |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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Also, I might add that that definition is speaking to the term in the abstract and not as it applies to a narrative. If you are applying it to the narrative, things become muddier:
If feminism means "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities," then Maria the Virgin Witch would have to be a show that actively demonstrates such a belief. However, the show doesn't bring about such an ultimate conclusion of equal rights and opportunities for the men and women within it, and doesn't show a movement in that direction, so again, it creates a problem of understanding how a show can demonstrate such a belief. Normally, you could demonstrate that if the show had women fighting to change the system and bring about equal rights and opportunities for all genders. But that's never been the story with this show. I agree with one of the previous posters who said this show is really about religious fundamentalism and Maria triumphing over Heaven so to speak. (Although I think Blood- is right, let people discuss whatever aspect they want. This is just a forum.) Now, I do think Gabriella did get at something with saying there is a "humanist" element in the show. That really speaks to Maria's triumph vis a vis Heaven. It also does speak to Bernard's activities toward the end. Again, I didn't find it to be particularly compelling (and I think it is somewhat contradicted by Maria's individual supremacy and use of magic powers to solve human problems, as that makes her very similar to the God she is opposing), but that is another issue So yea, if you wanna say this is humanist rather than feminist, I think you have more ground to stand on there.
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Eldritcho
Posts: 260 |
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I agree with this. Ever year we get handfuls of both good and bad characters of both genders. You just have to sift through the muck for a bit to find them. For every Kirito (or ten) there is a Spike Spigel, and for every Naru there's a Ryuko Matoi. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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During his departure, Maria softly called out "thank you, Michael."
CK, what do you think Maria was thanking him for? |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Also, I think there might be something significant to what Key said about how people might underestimate the rarity of complex male leads and overestimate the lack of complex female leads.
It is another thing that would be interesting to study, but I would be willing to guess that most male leads broadly fit into one of two stereotypes: (a) Shounen action hero (b) Hapless, milquetoast every-boy who is nervous and unsure about everything, especially girls. You might also have a third spot for asshole with heart of gold, but unless it is a purely romantic comedy, he might also be a shounen action hero by default. Male characters often don't get any deeper than that. Maybe it is because male characterization has become so much more restricted by cultural norms now than in the past. But yea, I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone told me that female characters in anime were becoming more complex than male characters.
Perhaps for not killing her? |
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Eldritcho
Posts: 260 |
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Getting back on the topic of the show at hand, this i think was one of the underlying things that made the show not sit quite right with me. Maria speaks for humanity (or at least the show runners want us to read her as such), and often meddles in it's affairs when she herself has such amazing supernatural powers. This puts her on a different level, and as such, requires that she take more responsibility for her actions and choices, and use her powers more responsibly. If she doesn't, is she much better than, say, the Gods of the Greek and Roman pantheon who screwed around with humans all the time? While yes, Michael was an ass, Heaven wasn't entirely without merit in trying to reign Maria in, as her actions were very akin to a God interfering in the lives of mortals. The fact that the show kind of brushed this off pretty quickly and just went into "yeah, but those guys are evil not-so-nice-people" justification just felt like a bit of a cop out to me. I don't know how i feel about it, i guess... ======================================================
You have no idea how hilarious this comment is to me. I congratulate you, fine internet person. {Merged serial posts. ~nobahn} |
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InstallGeneru
Posts: 8 |
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This would just mean she is a flawed person,right?Which would mean in this case a more realistic character.During the very last scenes of the show it seemed as if she matured in that specific matter ( trying to integrate into humanity and all.) |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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 Yes, HT, I have to admit you walked right into that one.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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If an unusually large population of female anime fans say a work is feminist, I think they have plenty of ground to stand on. It can be both things. We understand (extremely well) how you feel about the show and what you think people should and shouldn't believe about it, but there is plenty of extremely valid argument for Maria as a feminist work. To some other non-CK posters, this does not mean it is "pushing a FEMNIMSM agenda," because despite what certain corners of internet bigotry may have told you, feminism is not and has never been about the suppression of men, only the equality of women. Unfortunately, I already know trying to explain that to some people is a waste of my time, so I'll just leave that where it lies. Anyway CK, badgering people with your trademark 30-post needling doesn't change how they feel, it just turns the thread into your giant unreadable soapbox. You've done it once earlier in this thread, and it got so bad I had to tell you to stop. It seems to be winding down now, which is good, but I think you've made your point perfectly clear about a thousand times, so you really don't have to keep making it. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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I'm not sure what you think I walked in to, but I thought CK might be able to square that observation with her assertion that Maria was raped against her will by Michael. CK's response indicates she isn't really interested in that but at this point she is being given advice to stop doing an Excel Saga routine so I decline to pursue it further. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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So Haruhi, do I have to explain the concept of humour to you? You asked a serious question and CK replied with a quip which was funny. I never intimated that she had seriously parried your point. That should be obvious.
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From Merriam-Webster, "feminism" means: "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities" (
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