Forum - View topic
EP. REVIEW: Yurikuma Arashi


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SquadmemberRitsu



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1372
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:04 am Reply with quote
@JesuOtaku

I'm not seeing how my post is homophobic. Especially since I have zero reason to hate or be scared of gay people. Even if I did, why in God's name would a homophobe go anywhere near Ikuhara's stuff? Homophobia would be generalising the entire community based on the small fraction I mentioned but I made a point that I respect the series for not generalising full stop. Whatever you got out of the post was the exact opposite of my intention.

I'm just calling it how I see it. As I said, I don't generally think too much about the topic so I don't exactly have much in the way of strong beliefs to project onto the series like you seem to think I have from your interpretation of my post. Why would I even do that anyway? I know for a fact Ikuhara is more knowledgeable and has far stronger and more well informed beliefs on the topic than I do.

Homosexuality is in no way an inherently bad thing and I never once said that. But no community is perfect and the people perpetuating the nasty stereotypes, even if it's only a tiny minority, do exist. Yuri Kuma even acknowledges them in the form of Yurizono and the like.

Homophobia is different in the sense that it is an inherently bad thing which I also pointed out. But even though the belief system is built on impure intentions and a large majority of homophobic people are mean to the core, that's not to say everyone who thinks that way does so because they're hateful people. The fact that Uko, the twintailed girl, was eventually able to see reason even when no one else did communicates to me that she's not the same as them.

Once again I'll repeat to make it completely clear. Homosexuality is not an inherently bad thing and the people who perpetuate the stereotypes are an incredibly tiny minority. Homophobia is absolutely a bad thing and as such a lot of people who are homophobic are genuinely hateful people even if it is possible for a morally good person to be manipulated into thinking discrimination against the homosexual community is the right thing to do.

If you think my interpretation of the series is dumb then that's perfectly fine. But I guarantee you that whatever hateful intention you derived from my post is non existent. Also, I don't appreciate it when people respond to my honest thoughts on a topic that I believe very strongly in with knee jerk reactions and snarky one liners that completely miss the point of what I was trying to say. Especially in cases like where accusations and insults are being tossed at me even though I never set out to offend anyone. It's very rude.

Quote:
So now we've got a false equivalency between anti-gay people and people who generalize (no!!!) about anti-gay people. (And remember, folks, anti-white prejudice is just as bad as anti-black prejudice. In fact, the only real racism today...)
Seriously? You really think I'm one of those people?

Well I've got nothing to say about that other than 'No, that's not correct'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ATastySub



Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:08 am Reply with quote
You said yourself that you don't like when stuff is portrayed as black/white good/evil, yet you're doing exactly that. Homophobia is not simply the harsh anti-gay crowd. It's also exactly what you're doing without apparently being aware of it. Why did you feel the need to say "but some gay people" at all? Why are you one to judge others for being stereotypical? Effeminate gay dudes aren't the reason people are bigots and definitely aren't a reason to pretend GLBT rights aren't important. Pointing out that people who the status quo is failing for not following the status quo is not only incredibly insulting but also homophobic/racist/etc depending what group you're talking down to. You don't need strong beliefs or motives to buy into hate. All it takes is carrying on learned behavior, and then never correcting it because you see others calling it out as an attack. I'm not trying to condemn you. I'm hoping this helps you understand why you're getting such backlash, and in the future think more about what you're saying and how to read and internalize feedback instead of switching to defense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JacobC
ANN Past Staff


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3727
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:44 am Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:
You said yourself that you don't like when stuff is portrayed as black/white good/evil, yet you're doing exactly that. Homophobia is not simply the harsh anti-gay crowd. It's also exactly what you're doing without apparently being aware of it. Why did you feel the need to say "but some gay people" at all? Why are you one to judge others for being stereotypical? Effeminate gay dudes aren't the reason people are bigots and definitely aren't a reason to pretend GLBT rights aren't important. Pointing out that people who the status quo is failing for not following the status quo is not only incredibly insulting but also homophobic/racist/etc depending what group you're talking down to. You don't need strong beliefs or motives to buy into hate. All it takes is carrying on learned behavior, and then never correcting it because you see others calling it out as an attack. I'm not trying to condemn you. I'm hoping this helps you understand why you're getting such backlash, and in the future think more about what you're saying and how to read and internalize feedback instead of switching to defense.


Exactly. That's how I learned. If nobody had told me I was mistaken about the dumb BS that came out of my mouth around these sensitive issues, I would have gone on believing it unexamined. Nobody's trying to personally attack you, just to let you know that the sentiments you expressed are hurtful and bigoted, even though I'm sure that wasn't your intent.

Like you said, bigotry can often come from a place of well-meaning naivete rather than outright hatred, but while the intent behind evil actions is interesting on a human psychology level, it does not make actions any less wrong. It doesn't matter one bit if you don't feel like you are afraid of or hate LGBT people. When I was mired in homophobia, there wasn't a drop of hatred in me about the issue either, and I wasn't aware there was any fear, although it was there in a different form I wasn't cognizant of. It doesn't change the fact that what I believed was wrong, and my stance on the issue and the way I expressed it had the power to hurt people. The same is true of you and what you said, which is why it is not acceptable in these forums.

That kind of exclusionary speech is not welcome here, and you need to be aware of that. That's all there is to it. In this specific instance, you are not holding a defensible position. If you can't be respectful about this issue in these forums, you will have to keep your thoughts on it to yourself. That's all there is to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime
Grungehamster



Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:51 am Reply with quote
I know I've already plugged her once (as has Gabbomatic), but Dee at The Josei Next Door made a really good point how after how much people predicted the Judgemens would be the "final boss" they ultimately turned out to be a force for good (or at least had good intentions.) Kumaria is God and God is Love. All Kumaria's fragments are different aspects of love, the thousands of facets of what love means, but all imperfect loves, just like our characters suffered from.

Now granted, that's not to say they didn't ALSO represent male suppression of female sexuality to fit their own desires, or that they were ego-superego-id/instinct-rationality-emotion, or the personification of male gaze at other points in the show (Ikuhara loves giving things multiple meanings), but they were genuinely hoping the trials would get someone to finally understand the full breadth of love, to see the shortcomings of their own love, and restore Kumaria.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NothingIfNot



Joined: 25 Feb 2015
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:05 am Reply with quote
Well, I missed the previous plugs, so thank you!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Just wanted to say that these reviews have been by far some of my all-time favourite content on ANN. I sincerely hope Gabriella keeps doing series reviews for a long time to come, and that you guys get her to cover the more dense/intellectually stimulating shows.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:25 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
Once again I'll repeat to make it completely clear. Homosexuality is not an inherently bad thing and the people who perpetuate the stereotypes are an incredibly tiny minority.


Laughing Believe me, I wish your delusion were true, but yeah - Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
anonamon



Joined: 05 Feb 2015
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:07 pm Reply with quote
Grungehamster wrote:
I know I've already plugged her once (as has Gabbomatic), but Dee at The Josei Next Door made a really good point how after how much people predicted the Judgemens would be the "final boss" they ultimately turned out to be a force for good (or at least had good intentions.) Kumaria is God and God is Love. All Kumaria's fragments are different aspects of love, the thousands of facets of what love means, but all imperfect loves, just like our characters suffered from.

Now granted, that's not to say they didn't ALSO represent male suppression of female sexuality to fit their own desires, or that they were ego-superego-id/instinct-rationality-emotion, or the personification of male gaze at other points in the show (Ikuhara loves giving things multiple meanings), but they were genuinely hoping the trials would get someone to finally understand the full breadth of love, to see the shortcomings of their own love, and restore Kumaria.


I think you're giving them a bit too much credit there (and way more than Dee does in her review). Keep in mind that they were severed parts of Kumaria, and like all things which are severed in YKA, they oversaw and perpetuated a flawed system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grungehamster



Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:51 pm Reply with quote
anonamon wrote:
I think you're giving them a bit too much credit there (and way more than Dee does in her review). Keep in mind that they were severed parts of Kumaria, and like all things which are severed in YKA, they oversaw and perpetuated a flawed system.


Oh absolutely: how many girls and bears were killed in conflicts the Judgemens orchastrated in the hopes that one person or the other would show they had true love? Plus they were limited to seeing situations through their own individual perspective of love, and they definitely tried to portray/convince themselves that they were more removed and impartial than they actually were. Still, they were very good at identifying and explaining the flaws with each character's love rather than just thinking "not sexy, cool, or beautiful enough!"

They probably fall into the category of well intentioned extremists, and were necessary for Kureha reaching her epiphany. Of course, doing a mind wipe after you explain what she was doing wrong when she was a kid might not have been the brightest idea...

And yes, my argument isn't quite the same as Dee's. Definitely don't take my interpretation as hers (on this or the kegare thing) and more inspired by a point she made about those things I hadn't considered. I heartily recommend reading her reviews because it's been as enlightening as Gabriella's reviews in exposing me to alternative interpretations and potential themes I've overlooked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:05 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
Yeah, I totally agree with this, their relationship feels forced and lacking any chemistry. The show hasn't given me anything to tell me why Kureha would fall in love with Ginko, asides from that one time she saved Sumika's letter, Ginko has been completely selfish in her dealing with Kureha. And Sumika is still too big a presence in Kureha's memory, it feels more like Kureha will end up with Ginko because her mom wanted her to. I don't really know what kind of message this kind of artificial relationship is trying to convey, tbh.
Their "relationship", if you can even call it that, was so underdeveloped it can't even be described as bland. It says a lot about the ending when I felt a lot more moved by the Invisible Storm girl and the discarded mecha-kuma, than by the culmination of Ginko and Kureha's love. They just aren't really very interesting characters once the chain of tweeests are over. Ginko has been little more than a creepy, selfish stalker who lets innocent girls die, and Kureha has been too passive, in terms of the plot, to have any sort of meaningful characterization.

Also, do people still think the Severance Court bears are supposed to be the "patriarchy"? Didn't they like return to Kumaria once she was reassembled? They were literally just fragments of hers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Animerican14



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 957
Location: Saint Louis, MO
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:22 pm Reply with quote
While I certainly think the aspects in SquadMemberRitsu's original post that got the whole subtopic of homophobia rolling (as highlighted by NothingIfNot and JesuOtaku), were questionable, and I feel that a black-and-white view was painted of so-called anti-gays… I think the qualification of what constitutes "homophobia" that's being offered in response is also debatable. (Or am I mistaken in thinking you're applying "homophobia" to an attitude about homosexuality itself, rather than just people who have homosexual attractions? If so, then you can consider my objections more or less withdrawn.)

JesuOtaku wrote:

Exactly. That's how I learned. If nobody had told me I was mistaken about the dumb BS that came out of my mouth around these sensitive issues, I would have gone on believing it unexamined. Nobody's trying to personally attack you, just to let you know that the sentiments you expressed are hurtful and bigoted, even though I'm sure that wasn't your intent.

Like you said, bigotry can often come from a place of well-meaning naivete rather than outright hatred, but while the intent behind evil actions is interesting on a human psychology level, it does not make actions any less wrong. It doesn't matter one bit if you don't feel like you are afraid of or hate LGBT people. When I was mired in homophobia, there wasn't a drop of hatred in me about the issue either, and I wasn't aware there was any fear, although it was there in a different form I wasn't cognizant of. It doesn't change the fact that what I believed was wrong, and my stance on the issue and the way I expressed it had the power to hurt people. The same is true of you and what you said, which is why it is not acceptable in these forums.

That kind of exclusionary speech is not welcome here, and you need to be aware of that. That's all there is to it. In this specific instance, you are not holding a defensible position. If you can't be respectful about this issue in these forums, you will have to keep your thoughts on it to yourself. That's all there is to it.


So there wasn't a "drop of hatred" in your apparent homophobia, and you talk about not being "aware there was any fear," though you seem to condemn yourself by saying that it was there in a form "you weren't cognizant of." May I ask what that form might have been then? Or might I at least know if it was something that more personally extended to homosexuals, going beyond the Biblical stance towards homosexuality that I assume you're familiar with? (The Bible, and apparently everything/everyone else until the 1800s, didn't even talk about homosexuality in terms of identity.)

Without further clarification-- or if I didn't know any better-- I might imagine that you're implicitly condemning what Scripture has said, but I would like to think you're not. There have been a number of Christians with same-sex attractions who have discussed those attractions and what the Bible has said about them without promoting "fear" or alienation of individuals who share those attractions, like Wesley Hill. Are the views that they hold also "homophobic?"

------

I realize that it might be kind of strange to talk so seriously about this, and allude to biblical perspectives, in a thread discussing a Japanese yuri anime, so I'll stop at this for now. Anyway, back to actually talking about Yuri Kuma Arashi some!

I had neglected to mention this in my earlier response, but since we're on the subject of the Judgmens, I might as well… er, back up some of what Chrysostomus said about them, hah. Like others, I thought the Judgmens would be like a 'final boss,' an ultimate obstacle to Kureha/Ginko. That would seem to be very fitting for the series, considering how Gabbomatic and others have defined them as "the patriarchy" and what that term usually connotes around here. Wouldn't it have been "typical" of the patriarchy to approve of all the "sexy, cool, and cute" yuri shenanigans that had been occurring until the very end, at which point Kureha and Ginko show their love means Serious Business and do not need Male Approval? However, the Court of Severance ruled "Yuri Approved!" to the very end-- not granting a "Yuri disapproved" ruling (only to be forcibly surmounted by Kureha/Ginko anyway) like I'd have guessed. (Really, Gabbo, after how the Judgmens yuri-approved everything, you still hoped for the patriarchy to die on the way to their home planet? Laughing How mean!) I wonder if they can so strongly be considered the "patriarchy" after all, unless you recalibrate what the "patriarchy" means in this show. And if it isn't just "the patriarchy" that the Judgmens represent, what else then do they represent? Particularly now that they're confirmed to be "severed parts" of Kumaria?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5320
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:45 pm Reply with quote
I'll have to agree that the analogy of Judgmens=Patriarchy seems to have grown thin in the latter half of the show. I already thought it was kind of weak in the beginning, but nothing they did since Ginko was caught by the Invisible Storm seems to align with an allegory of "The Patriarchy". They never disapproved anyone's Yuri. Life Cool seemed to want to hold down the "predator lesbians/bears", but in the end Life Sexy always ruled in the bears' favor. They never represented any obstacle in the girls' or bears' goals. The most they did was question "Is your love the real thing?" and "Will you give up on love?", but when the judged bear promised not to give up on love, they'd approve her Yuri. If anything, they seemed to be rooting for Ginko and Kureha. The name "Judgemens" does evoke the idea of patriarchy (men judging what queer women should be like) but nothing they did followed that line, so I really have to question if they can really be considered "The Patriarchy"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 5361
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:17 am Reply with quote
Might they represent the male otaku - the male viewers of the series - who will pass judgement on the show and its characters? If so, they are representing consumers, not the patriarchy. Mind you, some might consider they are part of the same system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5320
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:12 am Reply with quote
^But the point is that they're not really judging anyone. They're not saying "Oh you're a bad lesbian because you don't conform to this or that type and we won't allow you to exercise your sexuality because of that" They're more like "Are you really a lesbian from the bottom of your bear heart? Yes? Good, now go eat some pussy". They never condemn Ginko for her "crime", or judge Yurizono for being a "predator lesbian". I can't see any of their judgments reflecting the "judgment" of male otaku either. Is there anything in particular that made you see it like that?

Honestly, at this point I don't think the Judgmens are supposed to represent something negative about society or any hardship that queer women go through. They legit approve EVERY Yuri that comes their way
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 5361
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:30 am Reply with quote
They are the only male characters that appear in the series, which screams out "allegory" to me. Posters, including yourself, have suggested that the patriarchy metaphor has issues so I was just throwing the thought into the mix.

I really want to watch this series in one sitting. I came to admire Kureha, Ginko and Lulu but I struggle to remember the details of the earlier episodes. Put it down to an ageing brain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 24 of 25

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group