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Key wrote:

I certainly hope Gabrielle's on the right track with her interpretations because I wasn't making much sense out of the series until I read her review/dissection. If I continue to follow this - right now it's barely hanging on my follow list - then I'm apparently going to need a guide like her. Razz

Clearly I am one of the people whom Ikuhara "just doesn't speak to."

I know what you mean. I've watched Mawaru Penguindrum and although I understood the main points of the show (at least I think I do), at the same time I feel like I haven't fully "understood" about half of what the show was trying to convey. Gabrielle Ekens' Review is like a Ikuhara-laymen dictionary.

@ Scarlet_Scapegrace.

If you've seen Revolutionary Girl Utena or Penguindrum then the parallels between the yuri court and the Shadow Girls of the former and Double Ecchi train banners of the latter would become apparent. In the interview I mentioned above Ikuhara said the Shadow Girls were himself. So it seems you're on the right track. One purpose of the court is to provide some editorial comment on proceedings.

@errinundra

Oh yes, the court scenes did strike me in a similar vein with the Shadow Girls and the Train posters (I probably should have mentioned I've watched and enjoyed Revolutionary Girl Utena and Penguindrum), but not completely similar.

I took the Shadow Girls and the banners as a sort of "Cliff Notes" for their respective episodes: boiling down the main thrust of the episode into a bite-sized alternate scenario/PSA. But the courts here seem to be far more directly commentative of the episodes than the previous two shows, which tipped me off that there might be something more going on. That and Ikuhara is probably being more blunt and direct due to time constraints of the 12 episode season. Time will tell.

Key wrote:

I certainly hope Gabrielle's on the right track with her interpretations because I wasn't making much sense out of the series until I read her review/dissection. If I continue to follow this - right now it's barely hanging on my follow list - then I'm apparently going to need a guide like her. Razz

Clearly I am one of the people whom Ikuhara "just doesn't speak to."

You are not alone Smile

[quote="Maidenoftheredhand"]

Wyvern wrote:

I think you are a little mixed up here. Ikuhara is a man. He may be making fanservice for women and queer people but that doesn't mean as a woman I can't find it offensive.

I know what his gender is. What is your objection, then? Do you think one gender can't, or shouldn't, write stories that appeal to another?

I mean, I do think we need more female and queer creators in anime and manga (and all forms of popular media) but I don't think the solution is to condemn any queer-based story that does not come from a queer person.

Utena was a hugely important show to gay otaku, and its theme of Utena becoming a "prince" helped at least one person I know come to terms with being a trans man. I don't think those connections are less relevant because the director does not fit into those demographics.

Last edited by vashfanatic on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

To me the most interesting moment of the series so far, and the one that gives me hope that this is going somewhere potentially interesting, is in the third episode, when, after the Yuri Court, Ginko and Lulu spoiler[help rescue Kureha, guiding her gun and encouraging her not to give up on love, all much more consensual and less (intentionally, I think) creepy than previous scenes.] It makes me think there's more to them than meets the eye, too. I also appreciate the continuing flashbacks to a more "normal" time between Sumika and Ginko, as it makes me care more about them.

I definitely think transparent = acceptable platonic relationships and bears = fetishy psycho lesbians is a step in the correct direction on interpretation. Kureha is terrified of forgetting her love for Sumika and returning to being "transparent" the way she's supposed to be (just as girls are expected to "get over" the "phase" of lesbianism to enter an "adult" i.e. heterosexual relationship). Meanwhile, though, her other option seems to be becoming a bear or a bear's victim and who wants that? What's a girl to do?

Well, "don't give up on love." Don't be either. Stay true to your feelings. Don't hide who you are, even if it means losing society's protection. The "real" world may be more complicated than it initially seems.

That doesn't mean that I don't agree that the characterization in this series thus far is way more shallow than in Ikuni's other work or that I don't think it's being strangled by symbolism that's getting in the way of story. But it's interesting enough that I'm going to continue with it and see if there are any surprises waiting (and let's face it, this is Ikuni, it's pretty much guaranteed there will be).

errinundra wrote:

Amongst the extras in the recent release of Revolutionary Girl Utena is an interview with Ikuhara. Given octopodpie's comments above I think this question and answer is particularly relevant to Yuri Storm Bears. In answer to the question, "Why is the issue of homosexuality so important in the Utena universe?", Ikuhara said,

Quote:

It’s not like it’s-- How can I put this? Lesbianism is… I’m not interested in lesbianism itself. Of course there are scenes with lesbian elements… I used those elements as… sorta like, as a symbolisation of “minority”. That is, in order to express, and… especially stress “minority” elements in the animated film, I portrayed them like lesbians. I didn’t want to, say, illustrate lesbianism. I wanted to express what it feels like to be a member of a “minority” group. The genre of animation really is symbolising things as pictures. If you want to express some story, say, about being a minority, if you portray that as-is, it’s not really interesting. So I turned it into, in this case, lesbianism, for its visual portrayal. When I meet lesbians, I am a straight guy by the way, it seemed very similar to being a so-called “minority”. It’s not the difference in nationality or skin colour particularly that defines one as a minority. Rather, it’s a difference in, shall we say, their personal identities… that gets them classified as a “minority”. And I find that very interesting. It’s very contemporary. I, myself, felt some anxiety on how I create things… and make my living, but not being able to fit in… and work together with those who lead a normal work life. I imagine lesbians can feel like outsiders. Those feelings that come with being a minority… In that sense, I have my own understanding of those feelings. Well, more sympathy than understanding. I wanted to portray those things in an interesting manner.

For sure, Ikuhara lays it on much thicker in YSB but in the scene octopodpie mentions the horror of being ostracised and labelled as evil is chilling.

[…]

That brings me to the second thing about that interview answer: Ikuhara's sympathy for outsiders. He's rooting for the underdog, er... I mean underbear. Well, something like that.

Yeah, I recall coming across something like that it in the Utena box sets-- I think I must have largely reduced what he said there to how "interesting" it is for him to address homosexuality in his works. Thanks for posting that whole answer of his here! IIRC, in regards to the focus on homosexuality or just deep girl-girl relationships in his anime, Ikuhara also talked about how upset it can make him to see female characters that he likes with other male characters. So there might be some shade of over-protective waifu-ing going on here-- 'if I can't realistically have her, then no guy can realistically fantasize over having her!' Laughing

I wonder if the viewpoint Ikuhara illustrates in the production commentary for Utena has shifted much in Yuri Kuma Arashi, and if so, how. Might he have come to (more?) fully embrace the concepts and ideals themselves that the characters may espouse, such as the value of homosexual action or homosexual identity or identity politics? Or does he remain as concerned, if not more concerned like he's seemed to be with Utena and Penguindrum, with the characters themselves as people? If he is still so concerned with these 'characters as people' in Yuri Kuma Arashi, then, well…

Yttrbio wrote:

On a logical level, I've never really appreciated the use of storytelling as a form of messaging. Watching something like LesBearStorm is like digging through a box of packing peanuts for the mixed-up, unnumbered pages of a PhD dissertation that wants to teach me something I already know. Logically, I already know that LGBT people suffer ostracism. I already know that Japan can be brutal to those who stand out. Just telling me these themes wouldn't seem particularly interesting or challenging to me.

[…]

What storytelling brings, that an academic paper or essay can't, is empathy. (In fact, I get the impression this is why a lot of academic papers and essays have stories in them) I can engage with a show on an empathic level, not a logical one. And the thing that connects me, empathically, to a story is people. Not human beings, or even characters, necessarily, but a set of storytelling tricks that tells my brain "this is a person."

LesBearStorm doesn't have that. There are no people in the show. Penguindrum had people. Even in the most abstract storytelling moments that made zero logical sense, I could empathize with the people of the show. But this show abstracts away even personhood. And though an argument could be made that that's sort of the point, that's a logical argument, and now I'm digging in a box for dissertation pages again.

And after all that, all I'm left with is metaphor decoding. And deciphering symbols is one of the most tedious and unrewarding ways I've ever engaged fiction, when there's nothing particularly interesting or challenging on the other side. (Thanks, high school English!) Is that all there is, or am I missing something critical, here?

… I have to sympathize with Yttribio quite a bit and echo at least some- if not most- of the above sentiments.

Now so far it's demonstrated that it hasn't fully abstracted away personhood. Already it's given some distinguishable detail to each of Kureha's peers in her class, like giving distinguishable hairstyles to even the students who don't say anything, as Gabbomatic has noted in her review. That's more than what can be said for the background characters in Penguindrum, most of whom were abstracted to the forms of human figures that you'd find in crosswalks and public utilities. The latest episode, or Episode 3: The Invisible Storm, also seemed to be a more 'character development'-oriented episode for Kureha, showing Kureha's love for the memory of her mother and Sumika through the nurturing of the lily flower bed as well a possibly-formulating reciprocity of Ginko's and Lulu's feelings/"eating," so I guess there's that, too.

Yet this still doesn't wash away what I also predominantly think about the characterization in the show-- namely that the show still doesn't seem to really have people. Most of the characters don't seem to have reacted like I would consider people to react, and I'd have hoped for them to reveal a little bit more of their depth and hoped-for complexity a quarter of a way into the series. So far, the motivations of the characters (particularly Mitsuko and "Beaver-chan" Konomi) have been worn very much on their sleeves, and there's little apparent meat behind said-motivations. Has there been much else to those two aforementioned girls besides predatorial lust and jealousy, so far, for instance? Even with regard to the characters who offer potential for greater complexity, it feels like there can't be more than what I'm already expecting. There is obviously a not-yet-fully explained cause for the special interest Ginko has taken in Kureha, for example (spoiler[is she a long-lost and nearly-forgotten childhood friend], perhaps?), but I can't fathom much else 'depth' to Ginko besides that cliched "twist" I spoiler-tagged for preemptive measures. My base perception of things have not changed much since what I stated in the Preview Guide thread after just the first episode:

Quote:

Yet the story itself doesn't seem to start off with quite the human or emotionally resonant touch that Utena or Penguindrum did; it seemed to lack the emotional hooks I perhaps subconsciously expected. Instead of starting off with possibly-relatable depictions of human experiences on which metaphor and symbolism can later be built upon-- like a tomboyish girl defending a girl or two from being bullied and abused (in Utena) or what look to be brothers fending for themselves in a humble house with a terminally ill sister (in Penguindrum)-- YuriKuma seems to head off right into a world of (deceptively?) obvious allegorist allegory without a similarly resonant human foundation. The theoretically "human" elements feel… well, somewhat trite. For instance, the actual yuri relationship offered up between Kureha and Sumika at the start, coming from Ikuhara, felt much like parody played too straight-faced. Viewers weren't really expected to be hooked in by the 'sweetness' and 'purity' of Kureha's & Sumika's relationship quite yet, right? It felt so rote and cliche to me-- and this is coming from one who hasn't really watched any yuri anime-- that I couldn't take it seriously. How seriously are viewers to take the sorts of relationships that may actually lie at the heart of the show? They proved themselves amusing in the first episode, but by the end of it, it didn't feel to have as much nutritional value as I'd have thought.

I might sound rather harsh, but I'm also saying this from someone who really liked Revolutionary Girl Utena and Mawaru Penguindrum--moreso the latter that than former-- and appreciated their longer runtimes. (Well, actually, Revolutionary Girl Utena probably could've benefitted more with tighter editing and trimming.) Yuri Kuma Arashi is definitely a creative standout this season, likely even for the year or more, but it has an awful lot to live up to, and it hasn't started off on as great a foot as I'd have preferred. Heck, some of my qualms go back to its premise and some of the themes it seems to be too visibly aiming or, but such qualms, if I'm to address them, might best be saved for elsewhere or just another post.

Since I've only seen the first two episodes, I suppose I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, but I find this show to be frustrating to watch. On the one hand, I've read some good things about it, and I can kind of see where the praises for it are coming from. On the other hand, when in each episode I've seen, there's a scene of "bears" that look like underage girls in fur bikinis that are licking honey from a "lily" sprouting near the pelvis of a naked and underage girl, ... uh, well let's just say that a comedy sketch where Kunihiko Ikuhara meets Chris Hansen would almost write itself -- even if that sketch wasn't entirely fair. Maybe Ikuhara's framing of those scenes is supposed to be a parody of the male gaze, or of fetishistic portrayals of lesbians, or something like that. If so, I think he dropped the ball, because those scenes look to me like the male gaze and the fetishes are being played straight (no pun intended).

^Yeah, does anyone have any theories about whether that's "really" happening or if it's all supposed to be a symbol or an illusion or a fantasy in Ginko and Lulu's head? Because Kureha never seems to remember it afterwards...heck, she's always right back at the platform where she was before she fell off (or did she?).

This is where the show is still not quite working for me. By the quarter-mark of Ikuni's other shows, I at least understood the general rules his story worked under, allowing for them to be twisted around later. That's not the case here, and I think this show being so short may be screwing up the pacing.

(Also, while I'm sure there's smut for this show because of course there is it exists doesn't it? has the reaction to the lily scene been "ooh hawt" among anyone? because every reaction I've heard has been "ew wtf?")

I'm finding an interesting contrast between this and Maria the Virgin Witch. The fanservice with Maria in that show isn't self-conciously in your face but she is luscious. In Yuri Storm Bears the lesbianism is deliberately and self-conciously in your face, but it's alienating, rather than arousing.

the minority thing is great, glad to see why ikuhara is going like that, being a person who is not interested in "forming a family" that also puts me in there so the series resonates with me.

maximilianjenus wrote:

the minority thing is great, glad to see why ikuhara is going like that, being a person who is not interested in "forming a family" that also puts me in there so the series resonates with me.

I'm sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually comparing lesbian relationships to not "forming a family?"

ATastySub wrote:

maximilianjenus wrote:

the minority thing is great, glad to see why ikuhara is going like that, being a person who is not interested in "forming a family" that also puts me in there so the series resonates with me.

I'm sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually comparing lesbians relationships to not "forming a family?"

I think (hope?) that they mean "I'm not interested in a heteronormative family; i.e., "settling down" and having kids" which probably puts them in the "minority" category.

[quote="Wyvern"]

Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

Wyvern wrote:

I think you are a little mixed up here. Ikuhara is a man. He may be making fanservice for women and queer people but that doesn't mean as a woman I can't find it offensive.

I know what his gender is. What is your objection, then? Do you think one gender can't, or shouldn't, write stories that appeal to another?

Except the fanservice (which is full of uncomfortable non consensual acts involving underaged girls) in this show still looks like one of its objectives is to titillate the straight male yuri fetishist, which the creator admits to being, and is commented on
in the show itself via the Bearister trial scenes. Is it so hard to admit that that might be offensive? I'm personally holding out hope (based mostly on the critics take) that this will all lead to something cathartic and profound, but I'm with Maidenoftheredhand in that the fanservice in this show so far seems very male gazey, and it makes me exceedingly uncomfortable. But maybe that's the point. I don't know.

While I am disturbed by the fact that people getting off to this series, I'm equally disturbed by the sheer number of people criticising it with the mindframe that those types are its target audience. Either way, it's a really disgusting and shallow mindframe when appoaching a series like this.

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