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Hameyadea



Joined: 23 Jun 2014
Posts: 3679
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:39 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
@ Hameyadea:

I think you're missing the fact that porn's a lost cause in the western world. There are still groups fighting against it(and not just traditional moralists, either), but they're not going anywhere and we've been living in a culture where it's considered normal for long enough to not care. LGBT issues are new and still divisive.

In Japan, on the other hand, yuri and BL are older forms of literature with fewer social mores against them. However, they don't actually connect to LGBT issues; yuri ultimately grew out of the class S genre of close, temporary relationships and BL has a tendency to be simply a stand-in for a heterosexual relationship. Both are understood as pure fantasy(much like with lesbian porn, liking it doesn't mean accepting the real-life equivalent), though the terms do tend to encompass works that ground themselves in reality.


I mentioned the different treatments that porn gets in Japan and in the Western countries to emphasis the lengths in which one government (Japan's) has gone to include censorship requirements on the sexually-theme content (porn) versus the treatment the same content gets in Western governments.

If have people will band together for a single cause, or with a single demand, laws and regulations can be added/removed per public opinion and pressure.

On the flip-side, Japan has largely accepted LGBT behaviors for a long time (as also evidence in the graph provided here); compared to the prohibition by the U.S. government until recently (and in some States LGBT bans are still in effect)
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Men having sex with men being acceptable doesn't mean anything - that's how it is in certain areas of Afghanistan(to the point of there being at least one case of a grown man being astonished that procreation required having sex with an unclean woman), but if you're actually gay, you're in for a bad time.

As for a mass push for porn, that never happened in the US; successful obscenity trials simply became next to impossible(the last one I'm aware of had the jury begging to be allowed to not watch all the videos in question part way through). In Japan, on the other hand, the censoring requirement's been held up several times. When it comes to these sorts of things, you have to remember: the US is very much the extreme when it comes to protected speech; I don't think there's a single government elsewhere on the planet with such an absolute in its constitution.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1727
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:32 am Reply with quote
Antonio Bravo wrote:
Guys bad news. Charter is dropping Smile of a Child TV on February 24! Along with some other crap I don't care like sports channels! Good riddance! Save our Little Women! At least I have u-verse so I'm safe!Smile poor charter anime fans Crying or Very sad


Unfortunate. I think they still have the website though, so for those who don't have the channel, they can watch the shows there.
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:28 am Reply with quote
Hameyadea wrote:
On the flip-side, Japan has largely accepted LGBT behaviors for a long time (as also evidence in the graph provided here); compared to the prohibition by the U.S. government until recently (and in some States LGBT bans are still in effect)


One main difference that was pointed out was it's far more common to see sexual issues, including LGBT stuff, in kids shows in Japan than it is here without moral guardians panicing that their kids are being exposed to evil things. You can see your standard nudity/fanservice in shows like Hero Bank and Fairy Tail, or more LGBT things like PriPara where a boy's dream was to become an idol so he decided to start crossdressing/become transgender, whatever you want to call it. I have to assume that being exposed to that kind of stuff from childhood is only going to create more tolerance compared to hiding that stuff from kids and making them discover it on their own in perhaps the least desirable way.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:13 am Reply with quote
It is sad when the past sins of one's nation affects one's future.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14756
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:22 am Reply with quote
Guile wrote:

One main difference that was pointed out was it's far more common to see sexual issues, including LGBT stuff, in kids shows in Japan than it is here without moral guardians panicing that their kids are being exposed to evil things. You can see your standard nudity/fanservice in shows like Hero Bank and Fairy Tail, or more LGBT things like PriPara where a boy's dream was to become an idol so he decided to start crossdressing/become transgender, whatever you want to call it. I have to assume that being exposed to that kind of stuff from childhood is only going to create more tolerance compared to hiding that stuff from kids and making them discover it on their own in perhaps the least desirable way.


Then again, Japan is quite a traditionalist society - social movements there move slowly like molasses. Very conformist; things don't change quickly; positions of power ruled by septuagenarians from same old families. Kinda where 1950s America was, like in their treatment of women and minorities, before the social revolutions. Doesn't help that next generations of J-youths tend to be apathetic and doth not protest much, so that favors the status quo. So it'll be awhile.


Last edited by enurtsol on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:28 am Reply with quote
A danger of nationalism is trying to hold a certain image of your country and not necessarily acknowledge the bad choices your country has done.

Last edited by Kadmos1 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gloverrandal



Joined: 20 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:45 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
Then again, Japan is quite a traditionalist society - social movements there move slowly like molasses. Very conformist; things don't change quickly; positions of power ruled by septuagenarians from same old families. Kinda where 1950s America was, like in their treatment of women and minorities, before the social revolutions. Doesn't help that next generations of J-youths tend to be apathetic and doth not protest much, so that favors the status quo. So it'll be awhile.


There's more to acceptance than legalizing marriage, like not having to worry about being stabbed on the streets by bigots like you do here. Marriage is probably one of the last thing one should worry about, and whenever I see people quickly point out that some states legalizing gay marriage as some kind of measure of gay acceptancehings in this country, I have to wonder if that is part of the reason for them being legalized. A political move to make it look like the problems gays face in those communities are somehow nonexistant because it's now legal to marry. Sort of like how when officials low the poverty line so they can artificially fix the poverty rates and say that poverty is on the decrease to make things look better than they really are.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:16 pm Reply with quote
Actually, in spite of what you see in anime and manga, real life Japan is less progressive than America. Most Japanese actually frown upon non-traditional relationships and aren't as supportive of LGBT issues as you might think. True, traditional pre-Meiji Japan was more tolerant but in modern times Japan tried to become more like the West when it came to sex. And though there's been progress here, Japan hasn't caught up and that's true of some other social issues as well.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:22 pm Reply with quote
You'd be quite naïve to think that marriage is the be all and all of solutions to the problems gay people like me face, but it's still a very significant step towards legitimize our relationships as something to be recognized and accepted, as well as allow us access to the dozens of rights and benefits only available to legally married couples.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:44 am Reply with quote
gloverrandal wrote:

There's more to acceptance than legalizing marriage, like not having to worry about being stabbed on the streets by bigots like you do here. Marriage is probably one of the last thing one should worry about, and whenever I see people quickly point out that some states legalizing gay marriage as some kind of measure of gay acceptancehings in this country, I have to wonder if that is part of the reason for them being legalized.


You're correct; that is part of the reason for legalization of gay marriage. For years now, acceptance has been trending upwards:





Once it hit the majority of US population, it became just a matter of time. When the case hits the Supreme Court, it's likely gonna be the law of the land for all 50 states.

It's true that gays are less likely to suffer physical harm in Japan due fortunately to Japan's traditional non-confrontational way of doing things. Instead, it's more about exclusion - tolerance extends beyond just violence; it also covers discriminatory exclusion and denial of rights. They may not physically hurt you, but they don't have to acknowledge your existence, stand up for your dignity, have any association with, thus be treated like a non-entity nor contributing member of society (these pressures also led to the J-phenomena of hikikomori and workplace bullying). In conformist homogenous Japan, those hurt a lot.

From that previously linked Asahi article:

  • Gays in Japan face legal discrimination in many areas of their lives, not just when it comes to tying the knot. In October 2008, the United Nations Human Rights Committee pointed out some of the discrimination faced by same-sex couples in Japan. For example, access to public housing was limited to married or de facto married heterosexual couples. The U.N. committee said this amounted to discrimination against sexual minorities and it called on Japan to improve the situation. Since then, political decentralization has created room for some local authorities to change their public housing regulations, but a discriminatory provision still exists.

    As if these legal problems were not bad enough, gays in Japan also face many problems when dealing with relatives. If one half of a same-sex couple dies, for example, the surviving partner is not legally recognized as a relative and is not entitled to any inheritance. Even when the surviving partner is clearly named in the will, they may come under pressure from relatives of the deceased to keep the relationship secret and, as a result, may drop any claims to what is essentially their joint property. Sometimes they even end up having to leave the home they shared with their partner.

    Gay couples are treated differently from heterosexual couples in many other ways, too. When it comes to operations or other medical matters too, gay partners are not always recognized as family members who can consent to treatment when the patient is unable to do so themselves. One time, when I moved into a new apartment with my partner, the building's management association complained to the landlord for renting a room to a gay couple.


Much of that treatment stem from J-society's emphasis on strict conformity rather than moral:

  • Naively, when I moved to Japan to live near Osaka, I assumed it would be equally tolerant, if not as open. After all, Japan was open to all kinds of subcultures right? All my Japanese friends and students had been utterly blase as well when I told them, which I took as indicative of general opinions.

    It was in our welcoming seminars when the Japan Stonewall representative warned us that coming out to our offices could potentially result in immediate termination of our contracts as their is no anti-discrimination legislation that it began to dawn on me that maybe it was going to be all rainbows and sakura from here on in. In Japan, attitudes vary depending on location. In metropolitan and international Kansai the response is usually one of surprise and shock, rather than outright hostility; friends living in the 田舎 (inaka, countryside or the sticks), have been far less lucky.

    A strong streak of social conservatism runs through Japan. The major opposition to homosexuality (and lesbians in particular) is not so much that it is seen as `wrong` or `sinful` - Japan is a very secular country as a general rule- and more that it is just `different`. The overwhelming assumption of my female students (and male ones to a lesser degree) is that they will marry, have children, give up work to be a 主婦 (shufu, housewife) etc, etc. Any lifestyle which shows potential deviation from that strict model is frowned upon- and no-one considers that gay people may aspire to this very model of matrimony and normalcy.


So ya have to think of the situation in terms of keeping society harmony wa and conforming to what is expected of you following everybody else do.
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