Forum - View topicANNCast - Baby, I Can See Your Halo
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Greed1914
 Posts: 4422 |
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This is rather well-timed. Haibane Renmei is on my list of shows that i need to rewatch, so having some points to think about while I watch will be interesting.
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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I saw Haibane Renmei a few months back, after about two or three failed attempts of watching the entire series. (My commitment skills are awful.) I have to agree with a good lot of you that this anime deserves it's masterpiece ratings. This touched me in several ways, particularly in the messages and the excellent exploration of Reki. Allow me to elaborate a little:
(Disclaimer: Okay, I didn't actually hear the podcast, so correct me if they discussed this. I just wanna talk about this amazing piece of amazingness) 1. Themes of Depression and Suicide Shortly after Kuu's departure, Rakka spirals into a deep depression with seemingly no end. In Episode Seven, her feathers begin to turn black, and she turns to cutting to prevent her friends from noticing that she's been sinbound. I was actually kind of disturbed to see the self-harm metaphor used in Haibane Renmei. No, it wasn't actually triggering, but I sure as hell wasn't expecting to see it there. (Interesting note: the kanji used in Kuu's name, when used as a noun, means "sky". When used as an adjective, it means "empty". Think about that for a second.) We also get to see more of Reki's character in the following episodes. She's had to cope with being sinbound during her entire life in Glie. Unlike Rakka, whose depression was born from grief, Reki has had to struggle with her sins since she first hatched. spoiler[If you believe in the fan-theory that Glie is Purgatory and the Haibane are angels-to-be, then you can see implications that Reki killed herself by walking onto train tracks and getting run over. Heck, even the scene where she's about to be consumed by her sins can be seen as a metaphor for suicide. On that note, it's hinted that Rakka jumped off a building after losing someone close to her.] This leads nicely into... 2. Reki: Little Stones Reki's main sin is envy. She finds herself jealous of the other Haibane because she herself has been denied a happy life everyone else has. Going off of the fan-theory in the spoilers above, spoiler[you could say that the other Haibane died either from illnesses or from being accidentally or intentionally killed.] Reki is also revealed to be self-loathing and afraid of becoming a better person. Rakka brings hope to her, but hope is terrifying. Whenever Reki felt hope for something better happening, something terrible would happen, either to her or someone else. spoiler[Hyoko was almost killed because of her recklessness, for example.] Though Reki seems to be carefree, deep down, she's miserable inside. She's lost hope in herself, leading to her almost meeting a terrible fate. If not for Rakka being her someone, Reki would have truly fallen into despair. Speaking of having a someone, last but not least... 3. Friendship is Forgiveness Haibane Renmei emphasizes the importance of having someone in your life. Whether it be a family member or a close friend, you will never be alone. To give one example, spoiler[Rakka's someone was a crow, implied to be a loved one whose death led to Rakka's own suicide. Crows in general are Rakka's motif, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.] Kuu's someone was Rakka herself, as she was able to mature and become an adult with the new Feather as her junior. And, of course, Rakka is also Reki's someone. She is the one who convinces her to have hope, and ultimately spoiler[is the reason Reki could take her Day of Flight.] That's just my take on this fantastic show. I can sit here all day and analyze it, but I have more anime to watch! See you soon. |
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arromdee
Posts: 71 |
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My first thought when I watched this series was that the characters are being experimented on by evil aliens who want to study the psychology of humans.
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raich8
Posts: 17 |
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"Haibane Renmei looks like Shadow of the Colossus if it was a PS1 game instead of a PS2 game."
Oh snap. One little thing that didn't get mentioned is that the same distinctive door sound is used for every door opened in the show. I know, a bit pedantic, but it was a bit distracting. To be honest, I don't remember the bad digipaint bothering me nearly as much as the door thing. Still, I'm a fan of the show, definitely. Last edited by raich8 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justsomeaccount
 Posts: 471 |
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Another fan of the show right here. This is one of those shows that you see so many people loving it, you see a very brief sinopsis or image and think "what? I guess this little show has a charm that fills many people's hearts, ok, let's check it out", and yes it is.
I really value this kind of anime that despite being a little abstract in how it shows the different issues, they are perfectly accessible in a way that both in the limited world they live makes sense and you go through it and its atmosphere, and the emotion is still captured perfectly and represented in equally effective ways, it's a show that you can watch blind and totally be into it, the same with its use of metaphors. In terms of its duration, I was perfectly fine during its duration but maybe it could have been a little shorter (the never-changing duration of 12/13 episodes for a TV show...), but I don't think that much because part of why the second half is so effective is because it plays with all the build up and slow atmosphere, likeability and familiarity with the world and characters that the first part had, so although a movie format can feel appealing, I don't know if it could feel a little too compressed, and I personally felt the emotion pay-off was, if not in the best form, close to it. But who knows. In terms of animation I knew when I saw it that it was cheap but the atmosphere and art design helped me through it so it wasn't a problem, and I am for the most part very leaning to low-budget animation, and sometimes I can even see it as humbly charming, and as they said, some shots like spoiler[when wings come out of Rakka, she is cutting them with scissors or Reki in her room] are incredibly effective despite this. |
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Parsifal24
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I'm one of those people who was touched deeply by the series and it's my third favorite Anime of all time. To me the crux of understanding the series is the Renmei Communicator's speech to Rakka when she'sspoiler[ sin bound] .
I've always thought the series, is an great visual representation of what Grace is without describing it or getting caught in the arcane minutia of Theological grammar. I can also see in Rakka with spoiler[the dead crow] being kind of a hint to some concept of Propitiation as well. It's a series that means a lot to me, as I had a really messed up concept of what Grace was (due to years in a religious cult) and this series helped me "get my bearings" so to speak. As an aside I'm surprised the interview with Yoshitoshi ABe( that was included as a special feature on the DVD release) was not mentioned but time constraints or something else |
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ailblentyn
 Posts: 1688 Location: body in Ohio, heart in Sydney |
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I really enjoyed this podcast on a great favourite. Everyone was in great form, and I especially enjoyed Matt's contribution.
The way I have come to think about Haibane Renmei is that you think it's going to be about death, but it ends up being a metaphor for life. Yes it's a purgatory story, but really purgatory is just a metaphor for life too! |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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I like to say that IF you don't need action in your entertainment, and IF you can get through the 1st 5 episodes (of a 13 episode series) of world building, then this series MIGHT be for you!
Or, put another way..... If you're looking for Big Busty Girls in Mini-skirts, then look elsewhere. Seriously. It wasn't until the middle of the series that I realized that that all of the older characters of Old Home are female. Rereading Zac's review (here), I am surprised by the DEGREE of . . . negativity that he allows himself to express in the podcast. This is the closest that Zac comes to criticizing the series's animation qualities:
This is just another way of saying that that Haibane Renmei is the antithesis of Big-Bombastic-Bad-ass Showboating-Shounen Action. |
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2443 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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Can I just say, I'm enjoying the photoshopping of the ANNCast logo for each of these?
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鏡
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I still remember a quote from Zac on an anncast a long time ago when he referenced Haibane Renmei in passing during a discussion of something else and referred to it as "all teacups and angel wings", a quote which for some reason stuck so firmly in my head that I kept turning it over for hours after listening to the show and remember it to this day, so it's kind of funny to hear how dismissive he was to the atmosphere and world-building in the show as being "unnecessary padding".
A claim which I completely disagree with, because all of that world-building and sometimes literal hand-holding is used to add gravity to the weight of Reki's claim that it was all a superficial ploy at self-redemption. When Rakka argues back that it doesn't matter what Reki's motivations are because she felt guided and loved, we empathize with her counterargument and believe in it because we felt largely the same thing for the first 6 episodes. Turning this show into a two hour movie would consequently drain the climax of most of its emotional weight and a lot of its more nuanced thematic content. Skipping the Kuramori episode in this overview was also pretty disappointing; Kuramori is pretty important in tying a bow around the overall theme of forgiveness as a human rather than divine act in the show, alluded to in the relationship between Reki and Nemu. Kuramori's portrait as a symbol of the essential humanity within Reki, even in her darkest hour, is an important part of fleshing Reki's story out. It's a shame this podcast wasn't a longer, more detailed discussion of the show, because there are a lot of details throughout it which add nuance and weight to key themes in it that are missed in a broad plot summary. I definitely got the impression that Zac was so allergic to the aesthetic of the show that it drained a lot of inclination to actually talk in detail about it though. And to be honest the poor quality of the show's art only added to the aesthetic pleasure I got from it. There are so many scenes from this show which have such clear aesthetic resonance because they depict in very low-quality a very messy, detailed, blurry reality. The scene with Reki brushing Rakka's hair, Rakka walking alone beside the river, or Nemu sleeping in the library; the bad art in all of these things kind of just adds to the weight of the scenes, makes them seem more real and immersive. That is, if you're not bringing any objective standards for artistic quality into your viewing of the show. fun fact: particular readings of Kuramori's name include 暗森 as Dark Forest.
Also this; the fact that Glie is being used as purgatory and that the Haibane are suicide victims is to make the whole thing an allegory for psychological self-destruction, which is why a Haibane's ability to take the Day of Flight is entirely determined by the state of their mind (hence the Toga koan being a way out), and why being "sin-bound" is an expression of a Haibane's self-condemnation rather than the presence of an actual sin. In the show psychological "mistakes" are given religious significance and physical manifestation, which is the whole point of setting it in purgatory. I feel like this aspect of the show could have used a lot more analysis in the discussion. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Just about everything you're talking about doesn't add any additional nuance or dimension to the main theme - those are plot details and story events that underline the main theme and support it, but I fail to see how pointing out each of them to say "this also supports the main theme of the show" isn't basically just repeating the main theme of the series over and over again. We could summarize in detail literally everything that happens but I don't think that's very interesting to listen to, and the show isn't thematically complicated enough to require that much restating of what it's trying to say. |
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鏡
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The main theme being the essential humanity of the act of forgiveness, a lot of what happens in the show is put to use in explaining what is required of someone to commit that act and what makes the act genuine. There are a lot of psychological dimensions that help explain what an act of self-forgiveness consists of, and those dimensions are explained throughout the entire show. Kuu gives us an example of that calm resolution borne of self-confidence and empathetic relationships (hence her "full cup" metaphor), Rakka's arc displays what happens when someone faces severe adversity without that, and Reki's is about the ways in which we trick ourselves into disabling our own ability to accept ourselves as multi-dimensional humans whom are deserving of salvation (and Reki's attachment to and respect for Kuramori despite her professed pure, desperate, selfishness is central to understanding that point and pulling Reki out of the trap). All of these things help to explain the nature of the psychological trap sin-bound Haibane find themselves in and what is required of them to escape it, which is the "human act of forgiveness" and the central point of the show. You can summarize the theme however you wish but these dimensions are what give it any emotional impact. The fact that it's set in purgatory isn't really the mystery which drives Haibane; the lack of confirmation of anything concrete within the setting acts as an intrigue to lure the viewer into trying to figure out the real puzzle within the show, which is: what does it mean to be sin-bound and to pull yourself out of that? You guys talked about the difference between Reki's "good/bad haibane dichotomy" and the Toga's more factual descriptions which was great, but the point of that difference was to allude to the fact that it was those kinds of objective moral judgments about one's essential character that lure Haibane into becoming sin-bound in the first place. My point is just that there's a lot going on in what Haibane tries to say, and to get all of what it's trying to say it helps to talk about more of the ways it tries to say it. Last edited by 鏡 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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secondkas
 Posts: 95 |
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Thank you very much for this podcast! I love everything involving Yoshitoshi Abe, and Haibane Renmei is one of my favorite anime. I was tearing up when I was listening to Hope’s narration, can’t believe it has still this much emotional impact on me after all this time. I also liked hearing that this somehow helped Matt in his darkest times; it’s rare for an anime to be so closely relatable to a person.
The first episodes might be tedious but I think its mellowness made the main arcs even more moving and harrowing in contrast. I remember wishing going back to the idyllic moments because the drama on the important episodes are just too visceral. My favorite scene is when Rakka was reading Reki’s journal, it is really heartbreaking. I don’t recall the series being that ugly, maybe because I associate it too much with Abe’s original illustrations, and I like his monochromatic style, which some may find too drab. But I agree with Zac, I hope there will be a big-budget, better-animated movie version of it, though we all know that’s not happening anytime soon. Only as a supplement though, and not something to overwrite the series. As a fan I want to see it at its best. And,oh man, just when I was about to say (and be relieved) that Haibane Renmei is an all-girl cast that is a step away from moe… |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Alright. I got all of that. I'm sorry we didn't go deep enough for you - sincerely.
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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I looked over it in 2002, but went back to it because of this podcast. Can't say I was overly impressed.
I felt it could've gone way deeper into the gritty dynamic of the world, than wallowing in Rakka's misery which took up 3/4 of the show. There were so many areas that this show could've explored, but didn't. To me the show really has a lot of wasted potential and the emotional drama level fell flat for me too. I really wanted to love this show, since the premise was really different, but certain ideas just didn't reach far enough. I agree with Zac, I'd have liked this better had it been a movie. |
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