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mewpudding101 wrote:

god45 wrote:

actually ange sold about 6,754 but even that will not make it a priority there other shows who did batter then ange shows like accel world numbers never lie

You've said that same stuff about Accel World and the sales number many times. I think we get it.

Also, second seasons don't just rely on DVD/Blu-ray numbers. Just to keep that in mind. It also depends on goods, music (King Records has a big stake in Cross Ange, and they've been getting really good results), events, manga, games, and other things. So yes, numbers can be deceptive, because you're focusing on only one sales chart of an entire franchise. You have to realize that the other facets have a major impact.
Also, also, Cross Ange still has 3 volumes to sell, so no telling what the sales will be at the end. Accel World ended ages ago.

sunrises is first and foremost business and it not just accel world many other anime of out sold ange I love this show but I am going to be realistic your getting your hopes way to high in the end dvd and blue ray will always be a the deciding factor that just how it is

Key wrote:

So what is so incredibly, offensively sexist about this series, especially compared to innumerable other fan service shows out there? And I'm asking this seriously because I just don't get it.

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

You disagree, and that's fine, and people can love this show all they like without being sexist themselves, but in my opinion that's what's in the show. To the point where when I hear arguments to the opposite I wonder if we were watching the same thing.

DmonHiro wrote:

OK, I'll bite. How the hell is a show where all of the women are off killing monsters all day and all the men except for one are completely useless or insane supposed to me misogynistic? Ange is one of the strongest female protagonists in a very VERY long time. The amount of shit she goes through and still comes out standing is ludicrous.

Yeah that is a load of crap. If the show is sexist, I'd say it is actually sexist against men (though still going to stick with it just not being sexist). Somewhat minor spoilers about their world from up to episode 14ish incoming, but it sounds like everyone here has either watched or adamantly decide against watching:

spoiler[The writer(s?) created not one but two worlds where men are drones and women have all the power. Want to not be either a slave with no free will or exploited for nothing other than reproduction and being sent out for the slaughter? Better be a female. There are a whopping 2 exceptions to this in Tusk and Embryo. Tusk's shtick was essentially that he exists to support and comfort Ange which is pretty much the same kind of crap role that annoys people when it is all the female cast is there for. Embryo is a shining example of men can't do it right in that his world is a failure, but the other world which is run by the women is doing just fine (until he messes with them, but still on their side it is fine).

Maybe the misogyny claim comes from the sexual assaults of Ange? Ok, that did happen. However, every time it happened to Ange, the tone was serious/dark and the show clearly wanted you to not be comfortable with it. When it happens to Tusk, it is treated as fairly light hearted and no big deal. If the sexual assaults show anything, it isn't misogyny, it is the opposite... I swear there is a word for that... You can certainly be offended that Ange gets sexually assaulted basically to get sympathy, but what is worse using sexual assault for sympathy or treating it as a joke and no big deal when it happens?]

Animegomaniac wrote:

I heard a lot about that first episode prior to watching but I just wonder how many people really understand what a cavity search is.... or how "invasive" it can be. By the way, Ange spoiler[smuggles something in during another captive situation, supposedly in the other "private" place] so I'm wondering if some of the characters who should know better know what one is. That had to have been some sort of callback... but that would mean that the writers did it on purpose.

I don't think anyone made light of how invasive a cavity search is. It is also just not really that far out there that she might be subject to one going to a prison and is not rape. Anyway that is irrelevant. The cavity search also never happened and was just another false assumption that I and some others had. Apparently in the manga it was clear that what actually happened is that she had something jabbed into her lower spine (the tail thing on their pilot suits apparently helps them fly it).

Last edited by Souther on Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:28 pm; edited 4 times in total

Zac wrote:

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

I partly agree with this, but I give the female chars like the Norma slack because they're mostly a product of their harsh environment. They get it drilled into them that they're violent animals and anti-social, so they take on some of those characteristics/play up to them in order to cope and achieve goals. Treat a bunch of people like crap on that kind of level and turn them into soldiers, at least some of them won't be clean cut and lack a healthy sense of self-worth. I wish the show did a better, less crude job of displaying this (if they intended to show this), but there we go.

EDIT: Please don't let this thread blow up like CA threads usually do lol.

Zac wrote:

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

Actually, I can't really disagree with that. Though I do think that in the second half the females on Ange's side show women in a pretty positive light. Specifically every single one from spoiler[the original world].

That doesn't show sexism though. For it to be sexist, they would have to not be doing the same thing to the male cast. Which they do. I mean you can't say that about the female cast and then for example look at Embryo, the brother, Tusk and deny that they are doing the exact same thing can you?

Zac wrote:

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

You disagree, and that's fine, and people can love this show all they like without being sexist themselves, but in my opinion that's what's in the show. To the point where when I hear arguments to the opposite I wonder if we were watching the same thing.

This is the clearest, most straightforward, and least deprecating explanation I've heard on this, Zac, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it up. I still don't agree with some of it (especially how "clear" this all supposed to be, as I wouldn't need to be asking these questions if it was that clear), but at least now I know what I'm specifically disagreeing against.

But I do entirely agree with you on wondering if I'm watching the same series as some others who have been most critical against it.

Key wrote:

But I do entirely agree with you on wondering if I'm watching the same series as some others who have been most critical against it.

Yeah, it seems to me as if some people have watched a version of the show in which men are not treated equally poorly.

Oh God, please no. I honestly thought this was just a really terrible series. So much drama was just so forced and the logic of some of these character was just so bad...Ugh, welp, I guess there's a good chance there'll be a second season that I'll just ignore.

Cyclone1993 wrote:

I agree with the others. I loved Cross Ange but it doesn't make sense for a sequel. The ending is fine as is.

My opinion too. The ending was satisfying enough (though I cannot deny some plot holes that was not answered)

Zac wrote:

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

Zac, I have been lurking the forum about CA for a while and this time I have decided to make an account to disagree with everything you said. First of all, you have to watch the whole show because "seeing most of the series" is not enough for you to understand that this series is the epitome of feminist anime, even more so than Claymore, which I considered to be at the top of feminist series and has been my favorite since forevever.

Secondly, your statement: "Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women" is completely wrong. You are passing off major supporting character like Momoka, Vivian, Salamandinay, the moms, and the rookies who are perfect to the point that they don't have an once of "negative stereotypes." Notice that I put that phrase in quotation marks here for my next point.

What is wrong with showing women as "catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches?" Women in reality can rape, kill, cheat, and do every bit of horrible things to another human beings just as men do. These are humanistic/animalistic nature that everyone of us is capable of doing, so shying away from showing bad sides of women is sexist in itself since people are forcing themselves to look through a socially accepted prism of women as diplomatic, caring, gentle, etc. Moreover, the norma women are not born horrible. The show didn't drop a bunch of bitches into the story so viewers can feel the pleasure of despising them. It presented logical reasons to explain why they are like that. Every character from Jill, Hilda, Salia, Chris, to even Silvia has ample characterization for us to sympathize with.

Standing on top of the pack is Ange herself. It will be a long time for any anime, if at all, to have gut to make a character as good as her. She shares a lot of traits with Teresa, my all time favorite character from Claymore: strong, proud, and unapologetic in killing foes to protect whom she loves. However, Ange is even better than Teresa by the fact that she is not shying away from being a bitch to anyone that crosses her (hence the show's title, cross Ange and you are dead). Not many anime show the male protagonist this way; and we are talking about a female protagonist here! Ange used to be naive and idealistic but though several complete brake-downs of character, she has been reborn again and again. Ange is not an idealised heroine saving the world, she is human through and through. I did enjoy alpha female Ange immensely. She is driven by mainly by her instinctively strong will, which comes to my last point.

Ange's will is the only thing that make her special and better than any character in the show. People have complained about her conveniently good luck as plot amor or "Mary Sueness," but Ange is not the best pilot without her super special mech. To understand this, you have to watch the end of the show to find out.

To sum up, Cross Ange is a feminist anime with flawed heroine and flawed supporting character in a flawed world. It may not be the best anime but it is the most human anime I have seen in a while. As for Ange, she is simply my favorite female protagonist.

Zac wrote:

Just about every female character in the show is rooted in a negative stereotype about women. I've seen most of the series and felt that was undeniable. If it isn't wallowing in madonna/whore complexes it's insisting that women are largely catty, jealous, angry, violent bitches. It is mean-spirited to a wild extreme and clearly has very, very poor attitudes about women in general.

You disagree, and that's fine, and people can love this show all they like without being sexist themselves, but in my opinion that's what's in the show. To the point where when I hear arguments to the opposite I wonder if we were watching the same thing.

Oh we were all watching the same show it's just that some of us weren't bringing overweening biases to the viewing experience that ensured we'd take the absolute most uncharitable perspective possible.

Cross Ange is pulpy, exploitative, and trashy. It does have some highly objectionable moments. However, if you are prepared to look at the whole cloth there is no way Zac's view is supportable. There is absolutely no wallowing in Madonna/whore complexes. Some characters are sexually active, others aren't. There was no indication that the characters who are sexually active are "bad" and those who are not are "good." Ange remains virginal for most of the show but when she has does have sex there is no indication that this is a "bad" thing and she is certainly not punished for it.

The show is comprised of 99.9 per cent female characters, many of whom are in conflict with each other. So yes, you are going to see examples of jealousy, anger and cattiness. If you had a show that was 99.9 per cent male characters, many of whom were in conflict with each other, you'd see plenty of negative behaviour too, but nobody would assume the show was trying to propagate negative male stereotypes.

And of course what Zac's perspective completely ignores is all the examples we see of female characters showing leadership, being brave, being strong, being loyal, being compassionate, etc. That stuff doesn't mesh with the bias, so out it goes, of course.

I would never argue that Cross Ange is some towering monument to feminism, but there is a more balanced view to be discerned by anyone willing to watch the show with even a semi-open mind.

TL-01 wrote:

Moreover, the norma women are not born horrible. The show didn't drop a bunch of bitches into the story so viewers can feel the pleasure of despising them. It presented logical reasons to explain why they are like that. Every character from Jill, Hilda, Salia, Chris, to even Silvia has ample characterization for us to sympathize with.

Very much this. The whole point of these "negative stereotypes" if you want to call them that is to get across that they are in a crappy situation so they have crappy attitudes. They're suppose to get across the very negative situation they've been forced in. Having people in a prison that are forced to fight until they die gruesome deaths be all nice and friendly all the time would be completely out of place.

Then as the girls realize they are actually the ones with the power, they fight back and overcome their circumstances. Basically it is showing that the girls have the initiative, team work (even if not perfect), leadership, skills, etc needed to solve problems for themselves. As they overcome their circumstances, they also grow as characters and stop portraying those "negative stereotypes." Granted the few that don't side with Ange don't get that till very near the end, but they did need some bad guys.

Compare that to the effort put into the male characters who are also "negative stereotypes" but all of which are static throughout in a show where men were never shown to have done anything properly except stand behind their women as she takes charge.

Let's take an example from the show itself.

Rape is used in the show as a device that only "weak" women succumb to; in this scene, Ange is mocking her former commanding officer because she finds out she was brainwashed and raped by Embryo. Embyro did this to Ange too, but Ange didn't succumb to the brainwashing and thus wasn't raped. So she's "strong", and this woman, who was raped, is weak, and deserving of mockery. If she were strong like Ange, that wouldn't have happened.

This is one of the hundreds of small ways Cross Ange betrays its terrible attitudes about women. It's there, in the characterization, in the ways it holds up Ange as a "strong woman", in the ways the characters interact with eachother. If your idea of a "feminist hero" is one that mocks rape victims for not being strong enough to put off their attacker, I would probably argue you aren't sure what "feminism" is. Not in a malicious way, but to describe that as "feminist" - you seem very confused to me.

I don't really want to start a huge flame war - you guys love this show and that's fine, I want to stress that I don't think you're a bunch of sexist pigs - but there's a whole ocean of opinion out there about this show that doesn't jive with what's being said in this thread. So representing that viewpoint is all I'm doing.

With that this is too much of a powder keg for me to responsibly continue debating. I'm sure this post will be torn apart, but I shouldn't engage further. Any further action by me in this thread will be moderation (which it likely won't need) and that's that.

@ Zac

Your post is quite a good one. It shows how discussion on 'powder keg' topics should go. Thanks.

Zac wrote:

Let's take an example from the show itself.

Rape is used in the show as a device that only "weak" women succumb to; in this scene, Ange is mocking her former commanding officer because she finds out she was brainwashed and raped by Embryo. Embyro did this to Ange too, but Ange didn't succumb to the brainwashing and thus wasn't raped. So she's "strong", and this woman, who was raped, is weak, and deserving of mockery. If she were strong like Ange, that wouldn't have happened.

I could see how you could get that, but that was not my interpretation. Not to claim mine is right and yours is wrong, but just that there is more than one way to look at it.

First, I'm not really sure it was clear she was raped. Embryo seems to have largely lied and manipulated all the women he slept with which is certainly plenty sleazy but not rape. In fact it actually is more one of those "negative stereotypes," the sleazy guy who lies to women to get them in bed but doesn't really care about them. If he used some magic power to manipulate them, then I'd say that counts as rape but he isn't shown to have that kind of power. I would also consider it rape if it was the result of torture like he was doing to Ange, but I don't recall it being clear the same thing happened to this character. I think its clear he did not rape the other girls and just lied to them and used them as tools, so it isn't like that is his only approach. I said largely because he did clearly try to rape at least once.

I took Ange to be calling her weak not just because of what happened to her but because of how she let it effect her. It wasn't that weak women get raped. Ange isn't strong because she wasn't raped. Embryo had plenty of chances if he wanted to, and Ange couldn't have stopped him. Ange is strong because she took control of the situation rather than letting the situation control her like the other character in question did.

I also don't think Ange would have mocked just anyone for that either. Ange was mocking a woman that has been a bitch to her pretty much the entire time so I'm sure part of that was payback, but I think Ange was also clearly trying to illicit a certain response which she ended up getting.

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