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Cross Ange Creative Producer Indicates Sales Were Strong Enough for More


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TL-01



Joined: 30 Apr 2015
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:55 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Let's take an example from the show itself.

Rape is used in the show as a device that only "weak" women succumb to; in this scene, Ange is mocking her former commanding officer because she finds out she was brainwashed and raped by Embryo. Embyro did this to Ange too, but Ange didn't succumb to the brainwashing and thus wasn't raped. So she's "strong", and this woman, who was raped, is weak, and deserving of mockery. If she were strong like Ange, that wouldn't have happened.


No, Jill was mocked because she is a horrible person. She is horrible to Ange, whom she view as a puppet, and Salia, a tool. Ange instinctively has never liked or worshipped Jill and Ange was proven right. Jill was blinded by revenge and let's not forget her original sins born from jealousy that caused immense harm. Jill wasn't "rape," she is a willing participant because her weakness is exploitable. Thus, Ange's mockery was to grill Jill up to make her stand up on her ass for once and amend her mistakes. Ange's "tough love" is a symbolic come around showing that Ange has graduated from Jill's "tough lesson" in the beginning, completing Ange's growth and position as the commander.

If you view that scene by following the story, it's logical and consistent with the characters and their circumstances. It's a good scene.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 678
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:56 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

So what is so incredibly, offensively sexist about this series, especially compared to innumerable other fan service shows out there? And I'm asking this seriously because I just don't get it. I can think of so many other fan service-oriented titles which are so much worse about portraying women negatively; hell, I'll be reviewing what IMO is one of the worst offenders in recent years over the upcoming weekend, a title that I would consider worse than this one by a country mile.


Taking for granted that the latter part of this is true, just saying: in addition to stuff Zac said, the "there are worse things" defense is not and never has been an inspiring or persuasive one. Does this make the bad things in this or any other show better? Does it say anything about whether other things in a show make up for the bad things? Does it make any argument in regard to whether a negative portrayal really exists in the first place? This defense has never made me consider giving anything the benefit of the doubt. It just makes me shrug and think "so what?"
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Mecha Odyssey



Joined: 13 Jan 2015
Posts: 38
Location: Brampton, Ontario
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:01 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Let's take an example from the show itself.

Rape is used in the show as a device that only "weak" women succumb to; in this scene, Ange is mocking her former commanding officer because she finds out she was brainwashed and raped by Embryo. Embyro did this to Ange too, but Ange didn't succumb to the brainwashing and thus wasn't raped. So she's "strong", and this woman, who was raped, is weak, and deserving of mockery. If she were strong like Ange, that wouldn't have happened.



This is one of the hundreds of small ways Cross Ange betrays its terrible attitudes about women. It's there, in the characterization, in the ways it holds up Ange as a "strong woman", in the ways the characters interact with eachother. If your idea of a "feminist hero" is one that mocks rape victims for not being strong enough to put off their attacker, I would probably argue you aren't sure what "feminism" is. Not in a malicious way, but to describe that as "feminist" - you seem very confused to me.


If you look at this scene alone, it can very well seem that way. I did not get that vibe you are describing. I factored in the context of the previous episodes that weigh in to the meet up between Ange and Jill. The "Foolish thing" spoiler[is the reason why Jill is locked up and no longer in command. Remember back in episode 20 when she tried to sortie on her own. Then Hilda confronted her about her true reason to kill Embryo. The "foolish thing or things was 1) not being honest with everyone in the beginning. 2) trying to sortie on her own, she is the commander, her place was there no matter her personal feelings 3) firing her gun on Hilda and the others girls when she was trying to escape. To me these are the obvious foolish things that Ange was referencing as clearly Hilda filled her in with all the happenings.]

So this scene which you are using as an example of the negative portrayal can also be seen as a true moment of Ange understanding someone she never cared about previously. Same scene, interpreted in both a positive and negative way. That seems to be the nature of this show, thus why all the varying viewpoints.
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Souther



Joined: 22 Feb 2015
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, the whole "resisting rape=strong will" thing is something I pointed out as well in the EP reviews when ep.20 rolled about. There's some other stuff mostly involving Salia, Ersha and Riza, but that's a story for another day.

Concerning Jill, Ange was (understandably) bitter at Jill due to certain events, plus let's face it, Ange is an arsehole lol. Rather, it's the lack of sympathy from Jill's crew that was surprising; nobody defended her or did anything to comfort her about what happened. They're supposed to be her mates.


Last edited by Souther on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Well other people have already beat me to the punch, but the notion that in the example Zac cited above that Ange is mocking Jill for being too weak to prevent being raped is a grotesque distortion. Not a deliberate distortion. Zac is too smart and honest to deliberately distort an example and think, "heh-heh-heh, nobody will notice this" but rather a distortion brought about by a bias I referred to earlier.

This discussion makes me highly uncomfortable because it puts me in the unwanted position of "defending" a trashy, exploitative show that is unabashedly appealing to juvenile mindsets like my own. It would be easy to cherry pick certain things and then hand wave a statement that this sort of thing happens 'hundreds" of times. However, I genuinely do not believe this show was deliberately or subconsciously conveying the message that women are just a bunch of dumb, catty sluts who deserve what they have coming to them if they have sex, which, to me, is very much the view Zac is putting forward.

However, I too have no desire to start/get caught up in a poop-storm so this is my last message on this topic as well.
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TRNielson



Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 182
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:20 pm Reply with quote
Wow...

This escalated quickly.
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TL-01



Joined: 30 Apr 2015
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:23 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:

Taking for granted that the latter part of this is true, just saying: in addition to stuff Zac said, the "there are worse things" defense is not and never has been an inspiring or persuasive one. Does this make the bad things in this or any other show better? Does it say anything about whether other things in a show make up for the bad things? Does it make any argument in regard to whether a negative portrayal really exists in the first place? This defense has never made me consider giving anything the benefit of the doubt. It just makes me shrug and think "so what?"


The argument does make sense because despite there are many worse fan-service stuffs out there, they were set aside as "normal" service for male otaku while this bishoujo show was singled out early with intense harted none has seen before. In hindsight, it is refreshing show that goes to the core of what defined as "sexism," and "feminism." I don't have time to talk at length about this issue but many early critics were too comfortable with their predetermined view of what constitute the two ideas and what they think assume the show will be about.

People forgot one thing about CA: Sunrise, a studio with history of pushing the boundaries to create incredibly entertaining shows that were overlooked or shrugged off at first. Sunrise ususally knows what they are doing so people just have to believe.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2404
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:27 pm Reply with quote
Zac said all and this is a shonen franchise. I can name way more degrading "non-hentai" anime (Hoods) / manga (Akita Shoten) but that excuses nothing as even Kotaku had the decency to call out Ange as rape porno but modern hentai tends to have better animation.
I still can´t quite despise Ange even with my 1/10 as it exposed some of the people involved as the deviants i always knew them to be while failing to hit the market which i didn´t expect. I win? Well we are currently oversaturated with borderline-H, Nana isn´t an A-list i guess and the yuri community despises the show. That double whammy is the funniest thing about Ange but Vivi and Jesus were kind of fun too. Whoever came up with the final act in which Rau Le Creuset (Embryo) turns Flay Allster (Ange) / Shinn Asuka (Salia) and the rest into his sex puppets to restart humanity to then go into Fukuda´s third remake of "Beyond The Time" shouldn´t be allowed to touch a pen but i still want to see the final SEED movie to go into production in which Jesus is promised to fight space whales Very Happy before King Records kills them. This last second marketing stunt is fascinating and let´s see what else he will unleash on twitter (which 4chan transcribed).
Ange can get 10 sequels for all i care as it is my job to lend out 50 Shades multiple times a day which has a more coherent narrative structure but the market has spoken and off to the landfill it is. A few recommendations before i bugger off.
For ironic fans: Aki Sara -Killed by the government. / Wolf Guy - Wolfen Crest - It has a 200 page gang-rape scene + the king of all school shootings.
For honest fan: De:vadasy – When is this Eva hentai rip-off coming to Anime Abandon? / The Hades Project Zeorymer -The original mech hentai from 83 with surprising parallels to Ange.
Entertainment with a dark sexual focus: Marvel´s (17+) Alias – It excels @ psychosexual violence and is coming to Netflix. / Nymphomaniac - The best new film i saw last year.
Also Macross Plus (that plot twist!) / Zeta Gundam. Actual seinen as Berserk / Eden.
Or "real" hentai by Ono Kenuji / Yutaka Tanaka / Fuuga´s later works. Didn´t expect the last 3 eh?

http://tenka.seiha.org/´s hilarious Ange coverage is finally a must and the 4chan board for ep. 22 was one of the angriest i ever saw. My journey was worth it for that alone but some of the threads had to go into lockdown while Ange is a persona non grata on it´s yuri sub-board.
Have fun arguing, buy 10 copies if you truly believe and Comic Walker categorized the manga in which Zola breastfeeds her then WAY underage proteges at the same time as an introduction after molesting them with: Breast, Ero and Controversial. Truer words were never spoken Wink.
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god45



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 90
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:28 pm Reply with quote
TL-01 wrote:
GWOtaku wrote:

Taking for granted that the latter part of this is true, just saying: in addition to stuff Zac said, the "there are worse things" defense is not and never has been an inspiring or persuasive one. Does this make the bad things in this or any other show better? Does it say anything about whether other things in a show make up for the bad things? Does it make any argument in regard to whether a negative portrayal really exists in the first place? This defense has never made me consider giving anything the benefit of the doubt. It just makes me shrug and think "so what?"


The argument does make sense because despite there are many worse fan-service stuffs out there, they were set aside as "normal" service for male otaku while this bishoujo show was singled out early with intense harted none has seen before. In hindsight, it is refreshing show that goes to the core of what defined as "sexism," and "feminism." I don't have time to talk at length about this issue but many early critics were too comfortable with their predetermined view of what constitute the two ideas and what they think assume the show will be about.

People forgot one thing about CA: Sunrise, a studio with history of pushing the boundaries to create incredibly entertaining shows that were overlooked or shrugged off at first. Sunrise ususally knows what they are doing so people just have to believe.
I agree with that their animation is always on per or even higher then the best for both their original and adaptations they always give 100 percent
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2401
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:57 pm Reply with quote
residentgrigo wrote:
as even Kotaku had the decency to call out Ange as rape porno but modern hentai tends to have better animation.


Uh, what? If you had to either label Kotaku either on the social jw side or not, they are clearly on the social jw side. Of course they hated it.

Since you clearly haven't seen the show, there is not one single character that we know was raped.

Also, Ange is Cagalli not Flay and Embryo is Dullindel not Crueset. I mean especially the second one... Crueset wanted everyone dead. Dullindel wants to create a perfect world full of drones with no problems which is exactly what Embryo is trying to do. Though I do get your point.
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JacobC
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:13 pm Reply with quote
SilverTalon01 wrote:

Since you clearly haven't seen the show, there is not one single character that we know was raped.


Patently untrue as evidenced by screencaps directly above your head. (And speaking as someone who saw the whole show: there's a big ole bunch of rape in it.) I get that you like the show, but there's no reason to make up things with no basis in reality either.
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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:25 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:

Patently untrue as evidenced by screencaps directly above your head. (And speaking as someone who saw the whole show: there's a big ole bunch of rape in it.) I get that you like the show, but there's no reason to make up things with no basis in reality either.


Embryo didn't actually rape Jill; Ange was mocking Jill to get a rise out of her. If you remember, Jill loved Embryo and was angry at him for showing his true colors and casting her aside. To quote Jill from episode 20: "I was scared. The cause of Libertus, the duty of freeing the Norma, my bonds with my friends. . . All of it was replaced by his love, by my dependence on him, and by the pleasures he gave me." Did he manipulate her? Sure, but he didn't rape her.

Also, I don't recall there being a "big ole bunch of rape in it." Hell, if I'm not mistaken, I don't recall a single instance of rape. Would you happen to remember a specific instance in the show where a character gets raped?

SilverTalon01 wrote:

Also, Ange is Cagalli not Flay and Embryo is Dullindel not Crueset. I mean especially the second one... Crueset wanted everyone dead. Dullindel wants to create a perfect world full of drones with no problems which is exactly what Embryo is trying to do. Though I do get your point.


I strongly resent any comparisons between Seed and Cross Ange, haha. Also, as far as I was concerned, Dullindel was the good guy in Destiny, while Embryo was an evil motherf*cker, although if I absolutely had to draw comparisons, I'd say yours is accurate.


Last edited by AsherFischell on Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:34 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
(And speaking as someone who saw the whole show: there's a big ole bunch of rape in it.)


Here's what I can remember with respect to rape scenes from CA's 25 episodes:

Spoiler alert: if you haven't seen the show don't read below. No point putting the points in spoiler tags because they are all spoilers. Don't read if you don't want to know.

1) Episode 1 there is an implied violation of Ange by Jill. Nothing is explicitly shown but the heavy connotation is that Ange is being violated.

2) Can't remember exact eppie number but early on Ange is sexually molested by a female superior officer whose name escapes me.

3) Ange is mentally controlled while naked and forced into what appears to be a state of involuntary sexual arousal by Embryo towards the end of the show's run. She is not physically raped, but she is humiliated and controlled by him.

4) We hear of, but do not see, that Jill was raped by Embryo in the past.

That's what I can remember off the top of my head. Anyone please feel free to refresh my memory on something I may have forgotten.
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mewpudding101
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:36 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
SilverTalon01 wrote:

Since you clearly haven't seen the show, there is not one single character that we know was raped.


Patently untrue as evidenced by screencaps directly above your head. (And speaking as someone who saw the whole show: there's a big ole bunch of rape in it.) I get that you like the show, but there's no reason to make up things with no basis in reality either.


1) Jill wasn't spoiler[raped, technically. She fell in love with Embryo. Yes, he absolutely manipulated her feelings, but she consented because she was in love with him.]
2) The scene in episode one was spoiler[in fact a surgery, but yes, it was set up to look like a rape. And I am still strongly against this imagery despite my fervent love for the series. But in the context of the show, this was not rape.]
3) spoiler[Ange was ALMOST raped in the final episode by Embryo, but was not.]

So I really have no idea where you're talking about. It really does feel like we were watching different shows or something...
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Mecha Odyssey



Joined: 13 Jan 2015
Posts: 38
Location: Brampton, Ontario
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:50 pm Reply with quote
However Tusk was molested by the curious dragon girls and right after that it is heavily implied that Ange physically abused his genital region with the medical instruments due to her annoyance of the situation.





However I would agree that Embryo spoiler[using his powers to torture Ange is mind rape as it still serves to exhibit his control of her in hopes of breaking her to his will.]


Last edited by Mecha Odyssey on Fri May 01, 2015 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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