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Rokka: Braves of the Six Flowers (TV).


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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2814
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:27 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:


But they don't have to remove every single stakes, just a few in a single area to create a breach. Just like to make a hole in a house to leave you don't have to knock down every single wall.


Here's the rub: actually touching and removing the stakes. For the demon faction, you'd have to:

1. Find them
2. Get someone to dig them out for you

No Flamie so no way of detecting the stakes. Even if you did find them, humans would need to be summoned to do the actual digging and removing; that's even assuming humans can take out the stakes and that it would deactivate the barrier somehow.

I might well be wrong, but the crux of this episode is to show that Adlet's theory is wrong and probably less so on how barriers function and stay active. That scroll Adlet gave Hans was probably his theory on what could have happened to enable Adlet to take the blame but we need to watch more to be sure.
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The Ancient Otaku



Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:03 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
If the barrier is created by the stake in the ground, couldn't they easily remove them to clear it? And if the stake are indestructible, who are they losing the war against the fiend if they can make stuff indestructible?

Adler theory does make bunny girl action interesting, she destroyed the tablet making impossible to activate the barrier pretty early, that's interesting...


Are you sure Nachetanya destroying the tablet made it impossible to activate? She may have made it impossible to deactivate by doing that...

After Episode 9 I'm convinced the Princess is the Seventh. I think Adlet was spot on that the Barrier was not on when he entered and that the "fog" that everyone took for the Barrier was of a non-Saint variety. I have two theories for what it actually was: either gunpowder smoke from all the bombs dropped by the flying fiends (Adlet noted that for all the explosions, the temple showed very little damage), or by the chaff/ sparkle particles that form when Nachetanya's Blades dissolve. Probably the former, since anything to do with gunpowder automatically throws suspicion back on the Gunpowder Saint, despite the fact that there are clearly non-Saint means to use/make it. Then, as Adlet hypothesized in episode 9, while he and Goldov were trying to dispel the Barrier, she stepped in and actually activated it with her little 'panic attack'.

The biggest hitch to the hypothesis is that she didn't use the same words that Private Lauren told Adlet and Flamie. Leave it to Hans to provide the real question Adlet should be asking; not "did you know about the barrier" (5 of the 7 did), but "how were you told to activate it?" Adlet is taking for granted the idea that the 5 who knew the activation method were all given the same method.

To do that, the Princess and Goldov had to get to the fortress before Adlet and Flamie did; not after. They had horses so it was not impossible. It would also mean Private Lauren and Goldov were accomplices: the Private would have had to lie that Maura was the only Brave that had been there in the last two days and to give them the bogus activation ritual. Given her rank, his rank and if Nachetanya claimed that the Braves that came after her were untrustworthy, I think the Princess could have pulled that off. That leaves Goldov to say nothing as she convinced the Private to lie to the latecomers and then lied to Adlet and Flamie about arriving at the fortress after them. His loyal (and jealous) attitude aside, it wouldn't be a problem, given the latecomers in question included Adlet the Scoundrel of the Piena Tournament and the Brave Killer herself.

So why is she the only one in Adlet's corner? well, it's not as though she didn't try to remove Flamie before everyone collected...As things stand however, Maura is right: the simple introduction of one extra Brave has flushed all thought of trust and unity. It's both Psychological Warfare and a Delaying Tactic and the longer this goes on the better. Nachetanya also played around with Adlet on the way there; she is confident she could take him out on her own if the time comes. Flamie (low-hanging fruit) and Hans (too unpredictable) are higher priorities and a third of the Six right there. Goldov is loyal (and useful), Maura is biased toward trusting the Saints in the group and Chamot doesn't need much encouragement to kill everyone except Maura.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2814
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:23 pm Reply with quote
The other thread has plenty of people pointing the finger at Nachetanya, but I'd question some of the aspects of the theory given above:

1. I don't buy the fog effect being from bombs or from the Sword Saints' dispel effect. The former being too delayed in execution and the latter far too widespread and deep for just one person to pull off for an extended period of time.

2. Both Nachetanya and Goldov were on foot when they reunited with Adlet. Granted they could have reached the fortress first and been the heroes referred to when Corporal Lauren greeted Adlet and Flamie, but it's also impossible to disprove their version of events since they had no other witnesses. Furthermore they were delayed by the fiends in the village that Adlet and Flamie had departed shortly before, so a well-prepared scheme might have been compromised by such an unexpected development.

Perhaps simplistic, but the only way Nachetanya could be a suspect is if the princess everyone saw in the first episode wasn't really who we thought she was; after all the genuine person had her face hidden behind a mask during the qualification tournament. Furthermore the "imposter" princess would need to fool the captain of the guard and all other members of the prison garrison when she came to bust out Adlet in the first episode.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
2. Both Nachetanya and Goldov were on foot when they reunited with Adlet. Granted they could have reached the fortress first and been the heroes referred to when Corporal Lauren greeted Adlet and Flamie, but it's also impossible to disprove their version of events since they had no other witnesses.

I'm still trying to figure out how they arrived after Adlet and Flamie yet got ahead of them on the trail.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:11 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how they arrived after Adlet and Flamie yet got ahead of them on the trail.


Did they? From what I remember, the canyon is quite typical in that it's narrow and one would had to approach it and leave from a set direction. There was also a lot of cover in the form of rocks and boulders.

I remember the scene in Adlet seeing the summoned sword fly towards Flamie as they were having a conversation. So:

1. They hear about the two of them from Lauren after reaching the fortress, panic and run after them and it so happens they catch up as Adlet and Flamie slow down and talk.
2. Nachetanya (and Goldov) are guilty and have been waiting in ambush all along. Even if that's the case, why bother animating a scene showing them killing fiends in the village beforehand if they're already in cahoots with the enemy?
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:39 am Reply with quote
1) It looked to me like they were waiting in ambush since they knew Flamie was with Adlet. I don't think it would have been possible for them to sneak up behind them to get where they were.

2) Because I don't think Goldov is guilty. She had to put on a show because he was there. Remember, she "froze up" and he did most of the killing.

I'm thinking most of her killing fiends is to put on a show, like all the dead fiends at the fort, despite it looking like most of the weapons went unused. "Fiends are loyal" and would be willing sacrifices if it helped the plan. Or maybe all the fiends just don't know her and she has to kill them to not blow her cover. Smile
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The Ancient Otaku



Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:19 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
Harleyquin wrote:
2. Both Nachetanya and Goldov were on foot when they reunited with Adlet. Granted they could have reached the fortress first and been the heroes referred to when Corporal Lauren greeted Adlet and Flamie, but it's also impossible to disprove their version of events since they had no other witnesses.

I'm still trying to figure out how they arrived after Adlet and Flamie yet got ahead of them on the trail.


They didn't: Flamie stopped to tell Adlet to knock it off with the kindness ('it makes me want to kill you'). He turned around and walked back to her, saw Natcheanya and Goldov over her shoulder and threw her to cover. it means they were coming up from behind them on the path, not ahead. Which helps maintain their claims of being there after Adlet and Flamie, although they could have waited elsewhere before following those two into the canyon. That canyon was a conveniently favorable spot to overtake Flamie in (limited in cover, Line of Sight for a shooter and routes of escape)...and Goldov had a map.

And yes, the Princess and Goldov only have each other to vouch for what happened to them in the twelve hours (half day?) Nachetanya and Adlet were separated (according to the Princess). It is also true and no secret that he answers to her. She also knows Goldov's buttons the best: it didn't take much for Nachetanya to remind him that his judgement regarding Adlet's innocence is clouded thanks to his own jealousy. It would not take much to convince him to back up her side of a story.


Gina Szanboti wrote:
1) It looked to me like they were waiting in ambush since they knew Flamie was with Adlet. I don't think it would have been possible for them to sneak up behind them to get where they were.

2) Because I don't think Goldov is guilty. She had to put on a show because he was there. Remember, she "froze up" and he did most of the killing.

I'm thinking most of her killing fiends is to put on a show, like all the dead fiends at the fort, despite it looking like most of the weapons went unused. "Fiends are loyal" and would be willing sacrifices if it helped the plan. Or maybe all the fiends just don't know her and she has to kill them to not blow her cover. Smile


I agree here. From what Flamie has told Maura and Adlet of Fiend ...culture?... there is no Big Plan, other than to get the Big Guy revived and protected from the Six. According to her, there's three fiend factions; she only knew what her own Create-A-Half-Fiend-Sniper-to-Shrink-the-Braves-Talent-Pool faction was up to. Flamie's own faction is now no friend of hers; I suspect however that the other two groups were potential threats to her even before her rebellion. These days Flamie doesn't care what affiliation the fiends she kills had; any fiend is a target.

For the Seventh, not so much. After all, even if the flying Bomber Fiends were not allies (as I suspect), the Monkey Fiend that tricked Adlet into blowing the shrine doors open was not there accidentally. The fiend factions don't wear colors or anything though, so unless they can be recognized through some other means (sound, smell, fiend type, level of intelligence) the Seventh has friend-or-foe recognition problems.

So Nachetanya was constantly in danger of running into ally fiends and having to kill them to keep appearances, but losing valuable allies to her own blades. She also ran the risk of facing off against other-faction fiends who wouldn't know/care that she was working for the Demon Lord cause and kill her.


Last edited by The Ancient Otaku on Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:16 pm Reply with quote
The general vibe is:

1. Nachetanya is what she says she is: naive, inexperienced but willing to help who she thinks are her friends to the best of her ability.

2. Nachetanya is the imposter and is a double-dealing, devious and manipulative vixen wiling to manipulate anyone and everyone into thinking Adlet is the imposter.

Depending on which Nachetanya one believes in, any number of theories supporting either version cannot be proven either way until more is revealed in the coming weeks. The only thing I can tell from the Japanese wiki is that the imposter is spoiler[somewhat unexpected. ]
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Raftina



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:36 pm Reply with quote
There's a third possibility for Nachetanya:

She's a manipulative vixen deliberately trying to get Hans killed, regardless of whether he is a brave or not, because she likes Adlet and wants to clear his name by any means.

The logic works as follows:
If Hans is fake, then all crests remain unchanged, proving Hans is guilty and Adlet is genuine.

If Hans is genuine, then all crests except the fake change to reflect Hans' death, proving whether Adlet is genuine or not.

This may very well be why Maura is pushing for Adlet's death so much: She considered using a brave to activate the barrier a good tradeoff. She may very well consider sacrificing a brave a good tradeoff for identifying the fake, though of course she would pick the one she thinks is most likely the fake.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2814
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:29 pm Reply with quote
I don't think the 3rd alternative really makes much sense, since Adlet would be incredibly angered by Hans' death if he were genuine and would not appreciate what (imposter) Nachetanya was trying to do for his sake. At any rate, Nachetanya being the imposter would probably be quite the blow for the world's strongest person and her professed love for him wouldn't make him feel better.

Mora might think the price of one brave worth paying to flush out the traitor, but adopting that train of logic so early in the quest isn't going to do the main quest any good when firepower is lost as early as the prelude.
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Raftina



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
I don't think the 3rd alternative really makes much sense, since Adlet would be incredibly angered by Hans' death if he were genuine and would not appreciate what (imposter) Nachetanya was trying to do for his sake. At any rate, Nachetanya being the imposter would probably be quite the blow for the world's strongest person and her professed love for him wouldn't make him feel better.

You seem to be making the assumptions that Nachetanya is the impostor trying to frame Hans, or that Nachetanya will confess to Adlet what she was doing. What makes you think that she would not make it look like Hans' supposed culpability is the result of a genuine, if faulty, exercise in deduction. For that matter, what makes you think her manipulation of Goldov isn't directed towards having him take the heat for blaming and attacking Hans?

Quote:
Mora might think the price of one brave worth paying to flush out the traitor, but adopting that train of logic so early in the quest isn't going to do the main quest any good when firepower is lost as early as the prelude.

I would not sacrifice a brave for this purpose, but not because of specious considerations of loss of firepower. Rather, I would not do it because it can negatively impact team cohesion and morale by making the leader appear callous.

But that is irrelevant. We are told Maura is willing to make strategic sacrifices, because Lauren told Adlet and Flamie that the backup plan is to use a brave to activate the barrier, thereby preventing a brave from confronting the demon god. We are raising possibilities. To disprove the possibility that a strategic sacrifice is something Maura is willing to risk to catch the fake, it is necessary to prove that any reasonable person would consider the tradeoff not worth it. It is insufficient to merely prove that it might be a bad idea, or even prove that it is likely a bad idea.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Raftina wrote:

You seem to be making the assumptions that Nachetanya is the impostor trying to frame Hans, or that Nachetanya will confess to Adlet what she was doing. What makes you think that she would not make it look like Hans' supposed culpability is the result of a genuine, if faulty, exercise in deduction. For that matter, what makes you think her manipulation of Goldov isn't directed towards having him take the heat for blaming and attacking Hans?

Quote:
Mora might think the price of one brave worth paying to flush out the traitor, but adopting that train of logic so early in the quest isn't going to do the main quest any good when firepower is lost as early as the prelude.

I would not sacrifice a brave for this purpose, but not because of specious considerations of loss of firepower. Rather, I would not do it because it can negatively impact team cohesion and morale by making the leader appear callous.

But that is irrelevant. We are told Maura is willing to make strategic sacrifices, because Lauren told Adlet and Flamie that the backup plan is to use a brave to activate the barrier, thereby preventing a brave from confronting the demon god. We are raising possibilities. To disprove the possibility that a strategic sacrifice is something Maura is willing to risk to catch the fake, it is necessary to prove that any reasonable person would consider the tradeoff not worth it. It is insufficient to merely prove that it might be a bad idea, or even prove that it is likely a bad idea.


You've lost me: either she's the imposter who's deliberately trying to set people up or she's innocent and is trying to set Goldov up as the imposter and/or scapegoat. I have no idea why she would do the latter; if she's genuine she and Goldov go back a long way.

As for the "sacrificial tradeoff", I probably fail to see what you are trying to convey due to lack of understanding or poor expression on your part but I'd draw a line between leaving one Brave behind to seal the peninsula in the event the garrison was annihilated and actually killing a party member just to expose an imposter. Both actions leave the party one member down, but one claims a life while the other doesn't. I have not seen enough of the show nor read the source material to decide if Mora is as ruthless as you have made her out to be.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:49 am Reply with quote
Episode 9

Seems a possibility that the fog might be scientific in origin, some sort of reaction to create the fog, which allowed someone to then actually activate the barrier. Flamie kind of confirmed that the fiends had at least some interest in creating fogs.

Maura is really accusative, it seems to make her kind of look like a possibility. But not enough that I am not knocking off my running theory.
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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Episode 10

About damn time....

Fremy has some trust in Adelt but only after he provides physical evidence of her innocence. Seems like Mora was trying to make Adelt the scapegoat and also using Chamo to keep Hans at bay. I think Nachetanya went a bit insane this episode....what a change of perspective of her on Adelt.

Mora's abilities impresses me a bit and and well, it obviously relates to the Mountains. (according to Chamo anyways)

Good episode in general.
Hoping this show gets another season by the momentum it has kept up recently.
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Bugnin



Joined: 09 Sep 2012
Posts: 575
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:24 pm Reply with quote
I take back my prediction. The princess isn't the seventh. She's just really, really gullible/stupid.

The obvious choice for the seventh right now is spoiler[Mauria], but it's almost like she's too obvious now. And if she's not, she's pretty much made herself completely untrustworthy in the eyes of everyone that's a real brave. She's basically decided that her opinion matters more than everyone else's, or actual facts/evidence.

flamie is a really interesting character. She's definitely going to be a wild card if this series continues.
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