Forum - View topicOverlord (TV + movie).
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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This is getting nowhere. The line between deductive reasoning and outright disclosure because of prior knowledge is quite thin in this series so it's going to be what airs next that decides whether or not what has been explained to date is deduction based on close observation or disclosure from someone who has made no bones about his prior knowledge and clearly identifies which scenes aired to date show up in the source material or not.
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Nordhmmer
Posts: 1028 |
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Clinging to the broad " prior knowledge" excuse on why you've missed pointedly obvious facts garnered from the anime alone,seems a rather passive aggressive response. Quote me directly where I stated which scenes show up in the source material,seems you're creating deflections. Please correct me |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Nordhammer. Most of what you're talking about is NOT obvious. It only seems obvious if you already know a lot of source material. In other words, *you* cannot be objective as to how "obvious" something is in the anime because you're already familiar with the material it is based off of. This is why those who are familiar with an anime's source material need to be extra careful when discussing matters with those who haven't been exposed to that material and are solely going by content provided by the anime.
Please stop being so defensive about this and just accept that you're not being cautious enough. I understand that you like the series a lot and are eager to discuss its finer points, but you're not winning any friends here by the way you're going about this. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4997970#4997970
If I'm not mistaken, there's no way anyone of us who just watch the animated adaptation will have in-depth knowledge to the extent put forward in the post linked above. I fail to see how all of the above is "obvious facts gathered from the anime alone". As for the claims put forward in this post: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4998345#4998345 This is what I've watched and heard from episode 2 and episode 3 to date: Entoma: この戦いの結果をこの場に見届けるようにって、ご指示を頂いておりました。 見届ける has a very clear-cut meaning in Japanese, and that's the action of "witnessing". When Entoma interferes, it goes clearly against her originally stated aim of just "seeing it through". Inference is one thing, but I'm sceptical of inferences coming from one so familiar with the source material with a tone of language that smacks considerably of spoilers. Albedo: エントマからの連絡では、全ては私たちの想定の範囲超えていないと、 アインズ様の命じられた通り、コキュトス自身を表に出ず、与えれた兵力だけで攻め入るようです。 This is clear enough. Cocytus is given restrictions on conducting the battle in episode 3. Somehow I missed the point where the chain of logic necessarily concludes that Albedo and Ainz directly put their foot down to stop Demiurgos from speaking further. From what I remember from episode 1, his job at this point is to gather resources and find more efficient methods of creating high-quality parchment. My initial question on what diverted him from the conversation does not necessarily imply 100% the inference that the Nazarick chain of command reached out to stop him from talking further. Yet the language put forward by someone who dared question such "an obvious conclusion" leads me to conclude that it's only thorough knowledge of the source material that could give one such confidence to upgrade what is a 90-95% chance of success to 100%. Ainz: そうか、あまり望んだ結果ではないが、そこから何を手にするかだな。 Although everything was within the calculations of the great Overlord, Cocytus being forced to advance his army earlier than anticipated was not an optimal scenario. Yet somehow someone here can proclaim with absolute certainty and confidence that the pair of them (note: Albedo AND Ainz) are working together against Cocytus by enforcing their prior restrictions. Based on the scene in episode 1, Ainz sent Cocytus off with full authority of command for his expeditionary army so drawing a conclusion so early suggests someone already knew the outcome in advance and isn't shy in declaring it without a tag. I'd based my earlier warning because off what I saw and what I heard, everything I've transcribed is what I thought was relevant to the discourse. However I've been told off for my lack of attention of two animated cours which are separated by more than a year in their original date (I wasn't fortunate enough to live in a country which aired the movie with its new material) by someone who has openly boasted of his own powers of concentration when reading the source material. Regardless, episode 4 will prove whether my caution on the earlier answer was warranted. If Ainz and Albedo declare they were out to test Cocytus as a commander as a method of improving his overall abilities without punishing him for his failure, then putting me down for not connecting the dots from "obvious heavy-handed hints" by someone capable of distinguishing which scenes in episode 3 were not from the novel smacks considerably of hubris and barely-disguised arrogance. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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#4
Whether a spoiler or a correctly induced conclusion, it turns out Ainz was indeed testing Cocytus for the purposes of advancing him further beyond the confines of the rules imposed by an online game. I'd predicted two weeks ago that I expected Cocytus to take over as the Lizardfolk head and it seems the pieces for such a scenario coming to pass are starting to fall into place. The only thing remaining for this mini-arc is seeing just how strong Cocytus really is on his own against an entire race along with the fate of the star-crossed lovers. The latter seem to be getting a move on with what little time they have allotted to them. I don't know if Ainz and his guild used to pull off flashy stunts like the one he orchestrated this week when they were still playing a game, but there's nothing like imposing one's will over a recalcitrant foe than the display of absolute and utterly irrepressible force. All those high-level undead soldiers used to form a bone staircase for Ainz to lord it over the puny living creatures massed under him. This week's Pleiades skit reuses the old trope about Shalltear and her personality. It's still funny nonetheless because seeing Ainz in his flustered panic mode while the combat maids give him the cold stare always brings about a smile. |
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Cam0
 Posts: 4888 |
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From the lizard men's perspective Ains and his crew sure seem like gods. Ains dropping the overlord act when he got to be alone was funny. There's just something so hilarious about an undead jumping onto a bed like a child and giggling by himself. And quite a way to end the episode, sure wasn't expecting Crusch to come out with it so bluntly.
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Nordhmmer
Posts: 1028 |
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I'll state it again.. I based my conclusion that Ainz messaged Demiurge directly or thru Albedo.And I've based this conclusion on the original anime material provided. This material,again,is not to be found within any of the source materials. I've only stated she(Entoma) was observing.Your carrying on about Entoma interfering is you're foolish misunderstanding. Your use of the two shorts provided upon purchase of the movies is far more of a spoiler and use of "prior knowledge".As you're also using material from the light novel. Know again you've not actually pointed any of my so-called spoilers,just simply constructed a deflection. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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And I will say this. I would have rather not get the entire plot here spoiled. That the info I got here did feel like it was based on things that could maybe have been reached from what was happening, but one would probably only have reached those conclusions by knowing them already through prior knowledge.
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Cam0
Posts: 4888 |
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Episode 5
Well, not what I call a happy ending to this conflict. All the other lizard man chiefs are dead. Lots of random lizard men died. I guess Zaryusu got brought back and maybe the other chiefs will be too. The random lizard men will probably stay dead though. Honestly I'm a bit confused. I thought the idea was NOT to control the lizards through terror. What was the point with that battle against Cocytus then? He slaughtered all of the most influential lizard men (except for Crusch). With most of the leadership dead, Crusch had no choice but to swear loyatly to Ains. Isn't that exactly a reign of terror? Uhh....? |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3652 |
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No, it's okay. Ainz is also threatening to kill Crusch's loved one if she doesn't rat out dissent. Oh, wait.
Honestly, the way they turned worshipful on a dime makes them a thousand times lamer than they were. I'm left confused what exactly I'm supposed to be thinking about all this, aside from "overpowered characters in RPGs really destroy good storytelling opportunities." |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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The conclusion follows the trend set in the first season, although I don't totally agree with the opinion that Ainz is imposing his reign of terror using the lizardfolk first couple as proxies.
Thinking back to what the monk-class chief said before his duel with Zaryusu, the lizards respect strength as the most important attribute for their rulers. Having easily defeated the most powerful warrior of their race AND brought him back to life on a whim, Ainz has stamped his authority over them indelibly. Not to mention Zaryusu's older brother initially proposed surrender when prostrate. The lizardfolk Malthusian crisis hasn't really been solved, only alleviated for the time being. All of the older warriors died in that massacre so the population is back to manageable levels. Combined with Zaryusu's scheme to farm fish, they'll be back up to overpopulation in no time. When that happens, what does Cocytus do with the numbers? Loyalty is one thing, willingly giving up their warriors to serve as undead cannon fodder is another. There is no guarantee Zaryusu's elder brother is going to be brought back from the dead. Knowing Ainz, he'll want some great deed performed in exchange as a reward. None of the other chiefs will be brought back either since the two survivors aren't attached enough to get greedy. |
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Cam0
Posts: 4888 |
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I believe that the monk-class chief was only talking about the dragon tribe not all the lizards. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2841 |
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There's also common consensus amongst the lizardfolk that leaders hold their positions by rite of strength or through special abilities like Crusch. Cocytus may not be of the same species but he has won his position through Ainz's largesse and his combat prowess.
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I do kind of feel there might be a lack of creativity in how this could have been solved under the goal of not using fear, that they did slaughter after all. But looking back at it right now, I maybe could see a show of strength without taking it so far as to continue to slaughter them, that it was going through the gateway, and maybe there is something cultural fitting for the lizard men. Yet I maybe see some hypocrisy, that Ainz was so put off by his bone throne that he did not use it due to human bones, but his attitude towards the lizard men, that he sees them as inferior, or like the things in a video games that does not fit.
Also.... Lizard folk sex. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11349 |
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Yeah, while I like the lizards, Ainz hasn't impressed me this season, since I don't feel like we've yet been given a solid enough reason for him to be doing all this in the first place. I didn't mind last season's OP-ness, since all the ones he got to show off against were awful beings or at least behaving badly, and it was satisfying to watch someone who was actually able to back up his trash talk for once. Here he was the aggressor for no apparent reason, or at least not a "good" reason, i.e., one I'd hope he succeeds at.
It's an unusual feeling to have a series do such a 180 that I'm now cheering for Ainz's "enemies" to defeat him. I don't think I like it. |
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