Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Classic: Paranoia Agent
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andyos
ANN Associate Editor
Posts: 262 |
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It's a very entertaining article, and I discuss it in Chapter 2 of my Kon book, but I can't buy the central argument. One of my objections was that 'It takes several leaps of rhetorical faith to see Paranoia Agent as "really" being about Japan's World War II record, which is frankly one of the few bad things about the country that Kon's series does _not_ seem to address (although it's referenced obliquely in Millennium Actress).' I also thought the interpretation seemed way too reductive, given the series seems critical of 'anyone who reduces the problems of the day to a sloganeering soundbite.' |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4575 |
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Well it's plain to see who slept through every single English literature class he/she ever took, that's for sure. 
But seriously, nothing in Paranoia Agent is random or meaningless. Everything from the names used for each character in the previews to Ikari's favorite brand of matches. Satoshi Kon was far too skilled of a storycrafter to waste time on throwaway imagery. And if a bunch of intelligent people with the relevant biological parts are telling you that something is a particular biological event, and when said event also makes perfect sense in the context of the story, you'd do well to listen to them. |
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DuelGundam2099
 Posts: 533 |
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That would imply I was ever in one.
He's a human like anyone else, just because someone is skilled doesn't mean they're flawless.
Why would this matter? Character names and mascots are one thing, but some brand name that does nothing isn't going to amount to anything. In fact I could easily say the same "nothing is random or meaningless" argument for anything I like.
The word you're looking for is agree, listening has to do with sensing.
I also don't believe in archetypes or de/reconstructions, only coincidences. |
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ly000001
 Posts: 73 |
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On Satoshi Kon's website http://konstone.s-kon.net/modules/moso/index.php?content_id=42, the storyboard labelled 274 says "初めて月よりの使者が来た、ということです", which sounds like Kon's cheeky way of referring to her first period, like how here in North America some people refer to menstrual periods as "monthly visitors".
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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I used Google Translate on that and got a bunch of gibberish, something about angels from the moon (that would make an entertaining Syfy channel movie).
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vonPeterhof
Posts: 729 |
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Oddly enough, I got a different set of gibberish, with 使者 being accurately translated as "messenger", but the moon getting replaced with "month". Either way, 月よりの使者 ("Messenger from the Moon") is both the title of a famous Masao Kume novel and a euphemism for menstruation. What's more, Kon's own text on the page linked to by ly000001 makes it a lot more explicit. The part of the text in between the second and third storyboard pages starts with a sentence including the word 初潮 (menarche, or one's first menstrual cycle) and it talks about how he obviously knew nothing about the experience and how this wouldn't normally be a topic he would discuss with his female acquaintances. He admits that his sole reference was a scene from the manga Oshaberi Kaidan where the protagonist gets her first period. In the paragraph before the second storyboard page he also talks about the irony of Tsukiko talking to her puppy using expressions and a tone of voice clearly aping how mothers talk to their children, "while her body completes the preparation for actual motherhood". All in all the evidence is pretty strong.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Great googly moogly, what will it take? You actually wrote a giant essay to the effect of "How do we know anything means anything in media, IT COULD ALL BE RANDOMNESS," all in order to avoid just saying "Oh, guess I was wrong." You were wrong about a thing. That's totally okay. That scene was about Tsukiko getting her first period, and to come back to your original post, that is not "propaganda" of any kind, it's a normal plot point in a simple metaphor for adulthood in a surreal but pretty easy-to-understand show. Menstruation is not some scary or outlandish thing to see in a story. |
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ly000001
Posts: 73 |
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Thanks for the second link! I could find plenty of references to the novel and its movie adaptation, but nothing about whether it was Japan's 'monthly visitor'. I think the main takeaway from these last few pages is that we men should be more like Dave Foley and have a healthy attitude towards menstruation 
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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>reads von's post
Oh now I see, I guess my interpretation was wrong after all.
Quite simple, Ly and Von used an official source (IE the creator and his storyboard), a factual citation, rather than interpretation. In other words hard proof versus soft proof. Also >metaphor for adulthood Never saw that and to some degree I still don't, still just seems like serial killer worship.
If you recall at no point in this thread did I say or imply either, I had a different perception of a scene, found someone that agreed with me on it (the review), and gave a comment about it. In fact I mentioned this in the review topic many months ago, nobody corrected me. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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If you did mention this scene earlier, then I can say I avoided addressing it knowing that Nick hadn't gotten to the last episode yet (obviously) and wanted to avoid spoilers--even the temptation of them. And whether or not you're aware of this, your rebuttals veered awfully close to "mansplaining" about why it couldn't be menstruation, TO women who experienced menstruation, without having any first-hand knowledge of it yourself. Maybe you're just a guy who likes dealing in cold, hard facts, but to me, it seemed like you were being needlessly stubborn about even the possibility of it being menstruation because you really, really didn't want it to be about menarche. Just sayin'. As for your post, what part are you doubting as a metaphor for adulthood? The onset of menarche? The fact that menarche led to an accident that forced Sagi to own up to her own mistakes? Or just that she had to own up to letting Maromi die, regardless of the cause of the accident? Because it seems pretty clear to me that child-Sagi flat out avoided having to own up to her mistakes by inventing Shonen Bat, which led to the physical manifestation of not taking responsibility of your actions--which, in turn, is a very childish reaction. This scene is all about Sagi's refusal to mature, at least until her adult self steps into the picture. EDIT: And now that we have proof-positive of menstrual cramps, I'd say that's useful information to put back into TV Tropes.
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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If you recall at no point did I say "it couldn't" or anything of the sort, I said it was likely something else.
Definitely this.
More like I misinterpreted a scene that is easy to misinterpret, I couldn't care less otherwise.
I doubt metaphors in general, I don't go looking for them, rather I see everything at face value. |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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Well, okay, but you have to acknowledge that there are other people who think differently. And some of them create art, and intentionally put metaphors into that art. Outright denying that metaphors in art (or tropes, or whatever else you've listed in this thread) exist just doesn't make any sense. Countless artists have outright stated that this-or-that thing in their work is a metaphor. Are you saying they don't know their own work, or are lying about their intentions? Also, you do realize that all the stuff you're "rejecting" or "doubting" is like 95% of discussion about art, right? What are you invested in about these discussions if you're not interested in that? Why do you care so much about the content of TVTropes pages when you seem to reject their entire mission? |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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No, what I'm saying is that until the creator confirms the existence of their metaphors I will believe there are none present.
When did this become an art discussion?
I'm not, I commented I agreed with the reviewer on a point of view he had and it snowballed after that.
There is a difference between not believing in something and misinformation. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2245 |
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Being skeptical of certain metaphors, I can understand; the "Spirited Away is really a metaphor for the sex industry" theory never sounded very credible to me. But refuting any and all of them without Word of God to back it up? I'm more staggered that you're semi-invested in the work of someone who deals very heavily in meaning, symbolism, and metaphors. I mean, I think Perfect Blue or Millenium Actress would be nightmarishly tricky to watch that way. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Heh, so we got the opposite of the beatnik who questions "What does it mean...?" to everything.
Silent-era Soviet cinema must be utterly incomprehensible then, since viewing it requires you mentally fill in the gaps.
It's been a discussion about art from the beginning. That's because Paranoia Agent is a work of art. |
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