Forum - View topicREVIEW: Saekano: How to Raise a Boring Girlfriend
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18189 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I find this comparison interesting because I have almost exactly the opposite impression of the two characters. I found Keima irritating and not the least bit sympathetic (I did, indeed, want to punch him to tone down his smarminess at times), while I found Tomoya more interesting and relatable. Probably the most crucial difference is that Tomoya's girls could put him in his place if he got too full of himself, but I never saw much of anything to that end in the first season of TWGOK. Last edited by Key on Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jackanapes
Posts: 119 |
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I think the guy just has really bad luck in what he's cast in. I've heard him be perfectly fine in shows like Buddy Complex or Food Wars or even that Danmachi one, but he's insufferable in a lot of his other roles like the guy from No Game no Life, Kirito and especially this one. For some reason sound directors really seem to like casting him in that otaku power fantasy male lead sort of role where it's just him getting to go on and on about whatever the otaku subject is and then living the dream because I guess the shows want people to be able to self insert as his characters and feel empowered as a member of the subculture and like they're better than everyone else. I think that's really the problem, if these roles gave more sympathy to these people and via proxy the otaku subculture instead of coming off as smug self-assured treatises on why it is that these people are apparently better than those that reject them or whatever than I think his characters might work a bit better but they aren't really. It's just kind of cynical in a way and kind of feels like a fudge you to the people that necessarily all that into all of these tropes and interests. OreImo also kind of felt that way too even if he wasn't in it. Really there's quite a few light novel titles that are essentially just power fantasies for their readers. I don't know though I think a lot of how this show and many similar to it come across really depends on how much you identify with the whole otaku subculture and it's tropes and values. If you do Tomoya probably comes across as kind of cool and someone you can identify with and self-insert into and there's no concern there, if you don't then he just kind of comes across like a big loud raving lunatic asshole that does the representation of otaku little favors. As for Megumi, she seems to be part of what I see as another bizarre emerging trend in character, the character with almost no personality or presence that I guess is actually supposed to come across as cool, normal and intelligent but really just comes across as artificial and unrealistic and even worse boring due to the sheer flatness of the characters execution. In a way I see it as a trope of it's own, just one that is a little newer because it's too laser focused on the whole being dull and flat thing. Yes there are some people like that in real life, I had a few teachers and professors like that really, but that doesn't make them any more interesting to watch in an entertainment medium than it was for me to listen to lectures by such people. It's little wonder that the rest of the cast kind of outshines and outpaces and that Megumi just seems to rely on sex appeal in the long run to have presence. IMO if you want to watch a show about a group of friends/people trying to make something they're passionate about that doesn't seem overwhelmingly cynical and like it's thrusting fanservice in your face a lot of the time and tackles topics with a genuine as opposed to sardonic appreciation of them you're better off catching Shirobako. It has solid sympathetic characters of all walks and experiences, it's twice as long and has about 10(0?) times as much heart as Saekano and I actually learned valuable real life applicable things from watching it that didn't just feel like the fantasy implication that otaku>everyone else in society who are apparently all out to get them and just jealous of their talents. Mostly it just didn't ooze smug meta level cynicism though, just appreciation and the occasional valid critique. Just looking at how it handles the production committee meeting scene as something like "look at all this goofy shit these people are focused on and how much they are missing the point" as opposed to say how something like Oreimo handles it where the implication seems more overtly spin focused to be "Boy look at how much this guy is going out of his way to be an asshole to our plucky little sister otaku/would be novelist heroine, how can we be sure to cast her more in the right here somehow and make this guy look like more mean spirited and still have her get her way in the end" kind of spells the difference in writing and focus and the value of the softer approach and not making everything revolve around trying to empower the otaku character and make everyone else look bad. |
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chito895
 Posts: 512 Location: Lima, Peru |
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I thought of the scenes with the wandering camera, such as the restaurant in the early episodes, as ways to emphasize how Kato didn't stand out and as foundation of what Tomoya was saying at the moment. As I remember, Tomoya was quite annoying with his repetitive comments about how he wanted to make Kato his heroine and how she should stand out, because she didn't, she was basically a background character. How the camera angles and direction helped? Well, they make her voice low, the camera preferred to watch the problems of a waitress, and the best of them, the camera didn't even care when Kato left the restaurant.
And the fan service wasn't all over the place during the 13 episodes. Most of the first half of the anime didn't even show skin or anything, the camera was just panning at the girls and that's all. Fan service-charged episodes were the 0 episode, the one at the hotel, and every episode were Michiru appeared. I was in fact surprise that there was little, even no fan-service during the committee episodes were the little girl appeared. In my opinion, the direction was pretty good when trying to serve as foundations Tomoya. I didn't care about the sudden change in colors, I in fact like those, and didn't find any problems with tone shifts: the drama parts were amazing (my favorite was the Tomoya/Eriri discussion), and most of the comedy was hilarious. This one was my favorite new series of the Winter season, and I'm eager to watch (or play) the second season of this show. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Keima being outraged and bombastic in his rants was played for laughs, and I felt that many of those laughs were supposed to come at his own expense (and the expense of otaku like him). On the other hand, Tomoya's scenes were supposedly played for comedy but - in my opinion - were used for dramatic purposes where they fell flat. That's not the entire reason why Tomoya failed where Keima succeeded, but it is a big part of it. Keima was often shown to be wrong about what he was saying, whereas Tomoya's rants turned out to be truthful, as if the show was justifying his rants. I could never shake the sense that Megumi was supposed to change, that being boring and plain was supposed to be a problem even though she had been perfectly happy with being normal. Tomoya telling her to change - and her decision to cut short a family vacation just to practice changing herself - made me uncomfortable, to be honest. Keima's girls were perfectly happy to give him grief. This was seen in all seasons including the first, and him getting beaten down by them (physically, as well as verbally) was a running joke in the show. And he was kinda relatable in that he was an intelligent but socially awkward guy who just wanted to be left alone to his hobbies. There were plenty of moments where he showed his softer side. Just look at episode four of the first season, in which he tried so epically hard to finish that broken game because he believed no (2D) girl should be left behind. You could make a good case that he had his priorities back to front and that he should put that passion to helping real girls, but nevertheless it proves that even at the height of his social isolation (i.e. before he mellowed a bit), he was still capable of and displayed empathy. He just aimed it at the wrong targets. Tomoya was unrelatable because he had several ridiculously beautiful and talented girls just itching to jump him (and in episode zero they arguably did), and what had he done to deserve them? They were his childhood friends and that's it. His geekiness and otakuness even led him to be one of the most famous people in the school without him having to work for it. Keima on the other hand was a social pariah at school. And yes he was his own worst enemy with his deliberate shunning of other people (I am reminded of the point NGE made about the hedgehog dilemma, but I digress). Anyway, it's a flaw that makes him more realistic (at least, moreso than most harem leads), and it had realistic consequences; he had no friends and was an outcast who everyone looked down on. Compare that to While his otaku knowledge did come in handy at capturing lost souls, it didn't actually help him socially; he wasn't getting seduced by horny maidens, that's for sure. Even when the girls spoiler[got back their memories] they still weren't throwing themselves at him. To become more empathetic and socially active, he couldn't rely on childhood friends or being an uber otaku. He needed to mellow out by being around and getting to properly understand the very girls he'd always convinced himself that he should despise. |
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Clarste
Posts: 427 |
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The only thing I got out of this show is that I didn't care about any of the characters, except maybe Kato, because they didn't seem interested in being anything more than anime archetypes. And even Kato seemed to want to become an anime archetype for some reason.
I guess I did watch the entire season though, so I can't have found it that objectionable. I suppose I didn't see enough potential in it to be disappointed like Nick was (also I skipped episode 0 after the season previews made it sound terrible, so maybe my perspective on the rest of it wasn't soured). In half-remembered retrospect, I'd say the most enjoyable part of it was Kato being honestly curious about why these anime cliches are so appealing to otaku, and never being given a good answer by anyone. |
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Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
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I personally loved this show. I can kind of understand the frustration some may have thinking it'd be some kind of a major putdown of harem or some totally subversive upending of it, I think that was really asking for way too much. I'm a decent fan of harem and I thought it was a cute enough and witty enough show when it needed to be. But of course if you go from how the show might be totally upending the archetypes of harem, you're going to be disappointed.
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CrisGer A.A.
 Posts: 170 Location: 世田谷区 Setagaya Ward |
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wow.
I was shocked to see the opening of this so called review by Mr. Creamer and see I need to put down my pen and stop working on the cut i am doing for a upcoming series and say a few things. First off, this is just about the worst type of review possible, it is an example of a nasty attack on a superb series that has to justify it's own point of view by assuming that we will agree with every trivial nit picking point, and so overall the article takes a superior supercillious and glib approach that borders on arrogant anger. Frankly I am very sad to see the editors of this forum have allows such a shallow treatment to attempt to debase one of the best series to come along in a long time. Saekano is superb in just about every way a top quality anime series can be, depth and impact of story, character development and design, pace, art, art style, animation and overall just about flawless treatment of a well known genre of story elevating it to a classic level of anime literature. None of the objections of Mr Creamer hold water and I won't insult the intelligence of readers here who will I am sure many of us have seen this attack to be fallacious. I will quote one sample to demonstrate the attempt Mr Creamer makes to sound both expert and superior to the show, in a manner that insults and debases the series while sniggering in outraged contempt at the same time....
All of this paragraph is assumptions that attempt to establish the author of them as an expert and therefore qualified to discredit a very well made and highly polished series full of very serious and commited anime with a few sharp jabs. To say a series is wallowing in cliche and is meaingless is to totally deny the validity of any creative work. This is the modernist critical approach when most of the so called reviewers have no sympathy for their subject but want to use it to elevate themselves instead. The commentary of Saekano is very important to the impact of the entire story, the small group of characters engage in a lot of very meaningful interaction and in the end, their efforts are both self validating and very interesting overall for any of us who are at all interested in or engaged by Anime. None of us are foreign to the concerns and worries of the creator that anime requires or the demands it puts on those who make it. It applies to the games and the entire universe of anime characterization that the story is about. There is no internal conflict in this fine series, but I can see that the fine qualities of a sophisticated series like this can go over the heads completely of some who try to examine them. I am sorry for it is their loss. Anime is above all entertainment, and a chance to do it with superb art, and music and acting and wrapped up in the format of animation to give the story life and vitality to engage our attention, and to do it over a season in a series of episodes. Thank goodness there will be a Season 2 for us to enjoy for this superb series. The viewers in Japan certainly saw its quality immediately and it has been very popular over here and in the States as well. When I see a anime of quality be called trivial and shallow and I know that it is a good series, I look for other limitations and motives on the part of the source of the critique. In this case it is clear the reviewer does not have the background and experience with anime and its requirements at the highest levels to know the high quality of this series. I really can't explain it in detail, for it takes a lot of time and experience to understand these standards, but anyone who is a long time follower of anime or who works in the industry knows what I am talking about. Staff can go form one studio to another and often do, yet can still understand the standards that we all work to maintain and exceed. Each time a series is designed and aired it is the result of all of the work that has gone before as well as the vision of the author, the director, the senior staff....and in the end when a superb series like Saekano comes along, we all know it. Mr Creamer didn't and doesn't and while I don't know the reason for that, I certainly won't be reading anything else he writes. I have better things to do with my time, like keep working to help make good anime for us all to enjoy. Time to get back to work. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
Don't be so salty about it. The show wasn't that great, and Nick Creamer was not wrong/out of line to point out all the problems he saw with it. |
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Yttrbio
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I think the show was that great, and I still don't get that salty about it.
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HaruhiToy
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I think the real problem is that we are seeing far too many shows of this type: anime about making anime or manga or video games. For otaku, by otaku, with otaku, we're all otaku. Where did this trend start? Genshiken comes to mind but that is probably an example that is more well known than something earlier. It is a pretty well known truism that you should "write about what you know" and what this anime illustrates is that the manga/anime producers have gotten to the point that they don't seem to know anything else. I thought Saekano was more entertaining than N.C. did but its overriding problem is the subject matter is boring as hell and it isn't bringing anything new to the table. I suspect there is nothing new to bring. |
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Dreeves95
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Saekano is a 100% otaku pandering show. It knows its audience very well and that is the one and only reason it is getting a second season. Not because it has good character writing, great aestethics or a well thought out/clever story. I wish it had all those...or any of those...
The show might be the lesser of two evils if you are choosing between an average otaku title and Saekano but that is 1. extremely easy to achieve and 2. not fixing any of the problems on the writing front. |
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Hyro_10
 Posts: 80 |
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The self awareness was the biggest problem I had with this show. I pretty much dropped after episode zero. It wasn't until I saw how much praise episode 10 got that I decided to try again and by then the show was just boring so I tried another episode, I think it was 8. Not having seen the whole show I'm not the best judge but I can agree with pretty much everything nick said.
These otaku main characters are terrible. I saw someone mention Keima from TWOGK and I can't decide who I rather put up with. While the mc here was annoying and stupid I really didn't like Keima either. I don't see what's sympathetic about a guy who spends so much time transforming the lives of some of these girls then says he doesn't like them and treats them with such apathy. As far as I saw ( I only watched the first season and a bit of the second) there wasn't even a good reason for him to be the way he was. |
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braket
Posts: 9 |
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this cartoon is actually bad, and not good
see, genshiken is good because first and foremost it's a coming-of-age story about not only its principal characters, but the state of fandom itself. throughout the different generations of genshiken's members we not only see the evolution of the characters, but the representation of different classes of nerds, and even society's attitude towards being a nerd itself. the otaku experience has always historically been wrapped up in a certain measure of shame -- "I can't tell anybody about the things I like SO MUCH because the moment I open my mouth people are going to think I'm weird for getting so into it, and especially since it's cartoons, and cartoons are bad things for kids and weirdos..." etc. everybody in the first generation of Genshiken has presumably had this shame literally beaten into them, as many kids who've grown into adults up until shortly after the turn of the century have. note how nidaime's cast is a lot more open and accepting of what it means to be a nerd: yoshitake is a total geek for Warring States stuff and is not at all ashamed of letting everybody around her know about it. Anime and comics and the like have always been kinda niche things everywhere; but as the older generation has tried to embrace a model of sincerity, especially as they enter true adulthood, the younger generations have never really felt the need to be as closeted; this is in no small part due to the influence OF this earlier generation. to put it another way: many 30-year-olds have been socialized to never admit in public that they still watch cartoons or are into stereotypically nerdy interests, and this socialization happened at least fifteen or twenty years ago. by contrast, many 15-to-20-year-olds nowadays just have no problem wearing that kinda stuff on their sleeves, because in the background they've been osmotically absorbing the deepest wishes of the older generation -- "I wish the kids who grow up after me never have to worry about being shoved into a locker for being a cartoon-liker into high school" -- and to top it all off, this thematic shift is also wrapped up in the shifting roles that Genshiken's original group have now found themselves in. Sasahara went from being an insecure goof to a working professional with confidence and a girlfriend; while Madarame started out as a meme-spouting and self-absorbed ass and is now learning to open himself up to emotional sincerity and discovering that "hey, people are kinda into me now that I'm putting myself out there". Meanwhile Hato's gender and sexuality is being portrayed with a sympathetic nuance that was quite rare in mainstream works up until quite recently. The important point I'm making though is this: Genshiken is commenting on people, real believable human beings, and their relationships to each other and to their media landscape. Saekano, on the other hand, is a faux-intellectual mishmash of navel-gazing and distracting lewdness that isn't actually grounded on a realistic understanding of interpersonal dynamics. Characters don't talk like people, they exposit their character archetypes to one another. The character of Katou is a blank void with zero personality and the fact that the author wants to equate that with "what a normal person is like" frankly speaks volumes about the author's presumed experience dealing with normal people, who most certainly DO have personalities and express emotions. The fact that the show's dialogue wastes its time trying to have one childhood friend explain to another that she's a doujin artist is extremely lazy and demonstrates a lack of willingness to utilize the potentials of a visual medium. Don't TELL me that "she's a doujin artist" during a throwaway expository conversation by the lockers between two characters who already know this information. Invest some time in the character by actually writing in a scene where we SEE her slaving over a page, brow furrowed in concentration. show us how much she cares. Show us her emotions. Show us her frustration, her joy, let it speak to us on a nonverbal level that transcends all need for words. We are human beings, and human beings are empathic and social. We respond to nonverbal cues and emotional displays before our minds even start to decode the syntax of the words we hear someone saying. Good filmmakers know how to sell a scene whether or not there's any audio playing. The fact that Saekano relies so much on its absurd infodumping as if it's a replacement for the visual field of the narrative just betrays a lack of confidence in the audience, and ultimate in the work itself. |
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Kamon
 Posts: 70 Location: Procrastinating |
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Oh? You don't say.
I can't wait to see your upcoming "anime" series. Please do post it when it's finished. If this wasn't an anime forum I could safely dismiss this guy as a troll... Last edited by Kamon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lemonchest
Posts: 1771 |
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Genshiken is a great show about being an oktau. Saekano is about how great being an otaku is. The former is contemplative, the latter congratulatory. The former self-aware, the latter self-absorbed.
Niderame did lose some of that, imo, mostly because when Saki graduated the show lost its outsider looking in character & Madarame increasingly became a fan pleaser instead of really asking why he isn't moving on from the club after graduating. Never was quite sure what to make of Hato either. |
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