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Ponycan USA Details Rokka: Braves of the Six Flowers Home Video Release


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SouthPacific



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 689
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:22 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
@SouthPacific

You have been cheerleading for AoA for years. Now you have picked up Pony Canyon for similar reasons. Your refrain that very high prices are somehow good for the market approaches a broken record. No one has to stalk you. If there is a discussion of high priced collector editions on the site you are almost always there soap boxing in favor of the higher prices.


Yeah, thinking about my previous post I don't think i'm being stalked at all. The lone fact that I do not bash AoA/PonyCan at any given chance, unlike some other people do, really has got to make me stick out like a sore thumb among the usual posts in AoA/PonyCan threads on ANN.

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You have been attempting to tell the North American anime industry how to conduct their business for this whole time.


Nope. I do not for a second believe that what I write on these forum boards will have any impact on the NA anime industry. Anyone who believes that their posts on here actually make a change really has got to get in touch with reality. I have been stating my opinions, I have not been attempting to tell the industry how to run their businesses.


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Then you state you do not live in the area and with few exceptions do not participate in the area's products.


The majority of my anime collection is actually from the US. All of my manga/LNs are also from the US.


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You have had the gall to tell people that they need to defer other purchases and save up to afford AoA's pricy goods and then state that you only have a few of them (three was it you mentioned?)


Well if you don't have a lot of money lying around you're most likely going to have to budget your purchases. I don't buy in large quantities because I simply can't afford to. But I make sure that the things i purchase are of good quality. And I have added a few AoA sets to my collections since the time I said I had three sets from them. Just got the first UBW box a few days ago and it's really nice Smile.

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and that you pirate any show where the legal release does not come up to your requirements.


I have to pirate long before any legal release is made available in foreign territories as there are no anime distributors in my country of residence.

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You have yet to explain why you think we should be glad to pay the higher prices and what advantage accrues to people in North America if they do.


Here's a few:
- Proper video encoding
- Faster releases
- More things brought over from the JP release

Quote:
However your constant refrain that such prices are a good thing is even more annoying. If you are going to continue it, you can expect people to continue to get upset with you.


It's quickly made clear by scrolling through the comment section of AoA/PonyCan threads that people are extremely upset with their business models. It's not odd that the very same people would be upset with someone who doesn't just mind those business models, but also welcomes them.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4120
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:47 pm Reply with quote
I try not to get into these debates too often, especially since I haven't really been involved in this particular thread at all, but this is ridiculous. I've followed it, pretty much from the beginning, and haven't seen a single thing written by SouthPacific that could be construed as an attack on another commentor, or remotely out of line. If anything they have been way more respectful than most people who would be taking that stance.
I'm honestly shocked by some of the responses, even by the moderator, that have been targeted at SouthPacific.

Different companies have different models. It's seriously pointless to whine about it. Your wallet is pretty much the only effective way for you to let PonyCan and AoA know how you feel. Things will change if they think it will be more financially beneficial for them to do so. It's not condescending to state the simple fact that those companies are catering to a collector audience. A standard edition is something that I wish was always available for people who just want to own a show, but if the people with the license disagree, tough luck. There is nothing condescending about that viewpoint.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:26 pm Reply with quote
@SouthPacific

I phrased that badly. You are correct, nothing said here is likely to change how the North American industry is conducted. What you have done is tell us, to the point of boredom, how you think the North American industry should be rearranged to support your personal preference.

So you do have access to the North American market. Therefor the absence of anime dealers in your country shouldn't matter. Yet you state you refuse to buy legal copies of anime if they are not precisely up to your standards. This is a common excuse for piracy even here in the US. I disagree but you are responsible for your own actions.

That you view pirated copies because streaming is not available I can sympathize with, your attitude that the legal version must be up to your specific standards, not so much.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "proper video encoding" I have yet to see any studio put out bad disks consistently. What errors have been made have been corrected. In this connection I should point out that AoA uses US production facilities for everything except the occasional import. I'm not sure why you think their output is superior. Especially since you don't buy from other studios.

We have streaming and you get to watch shows as soon as fansubs come out. I'm not sure why faster releases has any advantage except for personal preference.

I've pointed out to you that AoA is rather spotty on what on disk extras they provide with their releases. The monogatari series is especially lacking as all they offer is textless OP an EDs and an occasional summary episode. Unfortunately this does not change the prices they charge.

Basically I don't think we are getting anywhere near as much additional benefit to warrant the additional charge. What I do get is some of their releases match what you want and you feel they are worth what you have to pay. That is fine as far as it goes, but you seem to be completely unable to understand anyone else's feelings in the matter.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 3998
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:46 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
I'd guess the size of the first group far exceeds the size of the second group. I can't recall the last time I rewatched a show for which I own the DVD/BD release. In many cases, if I have both the physical release and a fansub, I'll choose the latter because it's easier to bring it up on my computer and watch the entire series without having to switch discs. I doubt I'm alone in this.


Streaming is for people who want to watch the show a couple of times. Buying physical media is for people who want to watch the show more than that or longer, and as part of their collection.

Telling people that want to own their favorite show, that they can watch it streaming is meaningless. A well kept BD will last you a lifetime, while streams will remove old content to make room for new, and files on your computer can be corrupted.
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SouthPacific



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 689
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:24 pm Reply with quote
@Alan45 It's worrisome that consumers are unaware of how US releases can be inferior to the Japanese releases. Ignoring the occasional blunders with video quality like Gargantia from Viz Media, quite a few anime releases suffer from unintended color changes.

I actually had an exchange on Twitter with Justin Sevakis regarding this matter, and while it could have started better I think it ended quite constructively!

Start: https://twitter.com/worldofcrap/status/589166323713708032

Continuation: https://twitter.com/worldofcrap/status/589970000095522817

End: https://twitter.com/ultimatemegax/status/589911083420364800

Example of said color changes: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/122916

Alan45 wrote:
In this connection I should point out that AoA uses US production facilities for everything except the occasional import.
Actually AoA's discs are JP authored, even their bilangual ones: https://twitter.com/worldofcrap/status/589080997850787840


As for the piracy thing, I know a lot of Americans who are all about being legal, and i'm fine with that. I'm also aware of that many of the very same people have seen a certain Macross series through means that are not legally available in the US. And I don't blame them. If an anime title is not available in your region i'm not gonna tell you to import the Japanese sets.

But perhaps it's easier to take your stance on this matter when you've literally got access to 100% more anime, legally & without importing, than I have. Oh, and while i'm not using this as an excuse but rather just stating facts I can tell you that watching anime on sites where anime has been uploaded illegaly is actually legal where I live. Uploading to streaming sites is illegal, but there aren't any laws in place against watching those streams.

As for disc extras i'd really like to see Aniplex do more. They do include some really good ones on occasion, like the documentaries from KLK and the occasional staff & cast interviews. They're still very inconsistent though, and that's something i'd like to see change.


And whether or not you value the things i mentioned (speed, video quality or extras) is of course completely subjective. I do value them, and quite highly too, which makes me favour the companies that prioritize those points.
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Psycho 101
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:08 am Reply with quote
SouthPacific wrote:
Alan45, AoA has gone from four employees to 10+. You simply can't afford to more than double your workforce unless things are going your way. That alone speaks volumes of how they are doing.

Not necessarily. They could have gotten some new investors and new money from them. That doesn't mean necessarily they are making that much profit. The investors, or AoA themselves, could be taking a calculated risk to widen their reach in the hopes it pays off. They could have also some sort of monetary loan to facilitate expansion. Again with the hope it brings in the return they figure they can get. I'm not saying one way or another if things are or are not going their way. I'm simply saying don't assume they must be because they are expanding. They could be over reaching themselves. Hello ADV. I simply wouldn't jump on the assumption bandwagon that they HAVE to be doing really well.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:32 am Reply with quote
@SouthPacific

I think we are making some progress here. I have no problem with your preference for AoA style collectors editions, nor do I have a problem with your preference for on disc extras. What has bothered me and many others is your tendency to defend high prices as a thing in themselves. Also your tone and rather dismissive attitude can also be a problem.

I do think it would be a good idea for you to accept that a lot of people do not care for AoA or Pony Canyon pricing and are going to vent when the subject comes up. It is not necessary to defend them on each occasion. Most people who frequent the forums are very familiar with your position on the matter. Frankly, I would prefer we declared a moratorium on the discussion of pricing of all shows either pro or con. As you mentioned before, nothing said here is going to change companies business practices.

Concerning the difference between US and Japanese produced discs, while I'm willing to accept that there have been problems with some specific shows, it will take a lot more than anecdotal evidence to convince me that all or even a significant number of US issued discs are that flawed. It is quite possible that what are seen as coding errors simply reflect the materials made available to US studios. If you want to bring up specific discrepancies in the threads dedicated to a given show fine. However, I think you are generalizing too much when you try to claim that the whole US industry is inferior to Japan.

When I buy a show on disc, I do so because I want that show to have and to potentially rewatch in the future. I find on disc extras to be interesting but most are good only for a single watch. I have noted that those directly from Japan are often obviously highly scripted and only minimally informative. If you like them that is fine, but I find they are not a make or break issue for me.

And finally, this started out as a thread about a specific Pony Canyon series. I think AoA knows what they are doing and as long as they continue to limit themselves to series with a strong North American following they will continue to succeed. I have serious doubts about Pony Canyon. Their offerings have been average at best. They have already had some production issues and there are complaints about the quality of their packaging. It will be instructive to see how they will do with Sound Euphonium. The show currently at issue, Rocca, Braves of the Six Flowers was fun to follow and discuss. However it has ended with a "read the source material" ending. It also has some serious plot holes. It may do well for PC but I will not be buying at their prices. It doesn't have that much rewatch value.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 3998
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:36 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
Frankly, I would prefer we declared a moratorium on the discussion of pricing of all shows either pro or con.


I disagree. Pricing is the biggest issue in the anime community currently.
I find it ironic that a community that is constantly fighting censorship in anime, seeks to control or halt discussion of an issue.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 1840
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:23 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
... Buying physical media is for people who want to watch the show more than that or longer, and as part of their collection. ...

There are also people who prefer the convenience of (well-made)rips of discs, even though they may be physical collectors as well. Like me.

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Telling people that want to own their favorite show, that they can watch it streaming is meaningless. A well kept BD will last you a lifetime, while streams will remove old content to make room for new, and files on your computer can be corrupted.

Redundancy. Always remember redundancy. Discs may last long in ideal conditions, but conditions are not always ideal and even discs break, get scratched or become unreadable for some other reason.

Discs backed as digital, either as (well-)encoded rips, or whole disc images(protections ripped), preferably in separate locations and multiple copies, may save your day that time in the future when you find your player doesn't recognize the disc you just put in of the show you had been waiting to revisit after so long...
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
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Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:45 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
I think we are making some progress here. I have no problem with your preference for AoA style collectors editions, nor do I have a problem with your preference for on disc extras. What has bothered me and many others is your tendency to defend high prices as a thing in themselves. Also your tone and rather dismissive attitude can also be a problem.


And no one has a problem with your preference for more standard releases. Hasn't this been obvious from the beginning though? No one is saying that standard editions shouldn't be available. No one is advocating for high priced sets, with no lower priced alternative. It has been said a few times in this thread already. Defending their business model because they are providing something I want as a collector is not the same as defending it because I don't want you to have what you want. Unfortunately, even when AoA does do a standard edition release it's still more expensive because they typically have higher video quality. I really wish they could do it with more competitive prices, but that's not possible, apparently. Sad PonyCan on the other hand, so far, has not put out a set that matches my standards for a release at that price point. And I won't buy anything else from them until that changes. I don't think their releases are very good at all. Right now, I probably wouldn't even buy a barebones release from them, to be honest.

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It is quite possible that what are seen as coding errors simply reflect the materials made available to US studios.


That's a really good point. And it's part of the reason that AoA/PonyCan are/should be able to put out better quality discs. Getting the best materials available directly from their parent company gives them a pretty big leg up on everyone else.


Quote:
I have serious doubts about Pony Canyon. Their offerings have been average at best. They have already had some production issues and there are complaints about the quality of their packaging. It will be instructive to see how they will do with Sound Euphonium. The show currently at issue, Rocca, Braves of the Six Flowers was fun to follow and discuss. However it has ended with a "read the source material" ending. It also has some serious plot holes. It may do well for PC but I will not be buying at their prices. It doesn't have that much rewatch value.


Same. The quality of their releases has been extremely subpar. They aren't doing the AoA thing and putting out high quality releases, but they are charging as if they are. That's my problem. Rokka will not be on my shelf anytime soon.

Sorry for butting in on your conversation, I just felt like I had something to add.
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SouthPacific



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 689
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:05 pm Reply with quote
@Psycho 101

That's definitely a possibility as it's happened before, but from my point of view AoA's expansion and growth has been gradual and doesn't appear to be forced. Not to mention if things weren't working out for AoA after half a decade I would personally think that investors would pull out of the sinking ship. But Japan can be... a bit unpredictable sometimes.

If they're still here in another five years I think it's safe to say they're doing OK.

@Alan45
I have provided you with explanations, facts & links to back up my claims but you continue to belittle them while attempting to blow other things i've said out of proportion (at which point did I ever say that the entire US industry is inferior to the Japanese? I'm talking about discs, not entire industries...)

You appear to be less interested in having a discussion where two parties exchange information and state their opinions, and more in proving that you're right and i'm wrong.

Alan45 wrote:
In this connection I should point out that AoA uses US production facilities for everything except the occasional import.


The fact that you state lies as if you were clearly speaking the truth makes me anything but happy to hold a discussion with you. Either you're genuinely just out to try to prove me wrong or you simply haven't read up on the subject and are just guessing things. My interest in replying to you is about zero at this point.

E:

Alan45 wrote:
Also your tone and rather dismissive attitude can also be a problem.

You use words like "idiots" and easily dismiss my arguments as well as the information i've provided without even reading up on the subjects that's been "discussed" while all at the same time make assumptions like the Japanese licensors providing the US licensing companies with inferior materials without providing a single ounce of evidence to back up your claims.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 2896
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:28 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Telling people that want to own their favorite show, that they can watch it streaming is meaningless.

Yes, if that was actually the point I was making, but it wasn't. I was replying to this:
MagusGuardian wrote:
well, I can honestly say that I'm probably never going to see this, isn't it bad enough that we're stuck with Aniplex of America's horrible pricing system but pony canyon has to hit us over the head with their bad pricing set up too?

I simply observed that claiming that Pony Canyon's pricing prevents someone living in an area served by Crunchyroll from watching Rokka no Yuusha is incorrect. Anyone living in an area served by CR who wants to watch Rokka no Yuusha simply has to put up with a few commercial breaks, or buy a CR subscription, or find someone willing to give him a free two-day pass, or sign up for the 14-day free trial. I didn't say anything about preferences for purchasing rather than streaming.

TarsTarkas wrote:
Pricing is the biggest issue in the anime community currently.

Outside of ANN that is almost certainly not true. As I said before the vast majority of younger viewers care not a whit about pricing because they don't ever intend to buy anything they watch. If I were going to point to what seems like a big issue in the anime community, subjects like whether the industry is "in decline," and the related "too much moe" discussions, are far more widespread than discussions about pricing.


Last edited by yuna49 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:41 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:31 pm Reply with quote
@SouthPacific

I stand corrected on the source of AoA's production, thank you.

You listed - Proper video encoding as a point in favor of AoA. This more or less implies that other companies selling in the US do not use proper video encoding. If you are not trying to imply that, I fail to see why it would be a point in their favor.

To support this you provide evidence of errors on one disc of a single show. While that possibly stands as a reason not to buy that specific show, it is rather lacking as reason to prefer AoA's prices over all other companies. Are you trying to suggest that AoA has never made an error and never will on any of their releases?
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