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Answerman - What Would've Saved Manglobe?


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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:45 pm Reply with quote
@Joe Mello

Since there appears to be shortage of animators and other types who actually work on the show, I doubt we are even losing that.

What I want to know is who on permanent staff at Manglobe that would establish a specific studio style is now broken up to work at other studios?
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noblesse oblige



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
Just what are we supposed to be losing with the end of Manglobe or any other studio?

From what Justin said, the director and head writer are from outside. We have already been informed that for most studios the animators are all freelance hired for a specific job. I suspect much of the middle level staff may be as well.

So, just who or what at this studio makes an anime from Manglobe different from anime from any other location? Is there some distinct vision or approach to anime that will be lost with the end of Manglobe?


If you value animation studios that routinely endeavor to create risky, original stories (Samurai Champloo, Ergo Proxy, Michiko & Hatchin, Samurai Flamenco), then yes, it's a significant loss to the industry. These kinds of studios seems to be in incredibly short supply these days and dwindling, so yeah, I'll miss it.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:07 pm Reply with quote
That sounds like a diminishing market, where the only companies that survive are the ones that make similar-looking things while innovation is largely ignored. In other words, casting as wide a net as possible seems to be the only way to even survive, and that doesn't sound good for the business.

Yerld wrote:
The structure goes under, and the staff simply regroup elsewhere or work for a different company, so long as there's demand for their services (and as it stands, skilled animators are highly demanded. There's a shortage, and studios are just begging for them).


Which makes me wonder: Are they paid a lot? I see a lot of articles here talking about how animators, regardless of their rank, have very low wages. If skilled animators are in high demand, then theoretically, they should be getting paid a lot as an incentive for them to stay.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:54 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Quote:
That sounds like a diminishing market, where the only companies that survive are the ones that make similar-looking things while innovation is largely ignored.
It is not as bad as it seems. To begin with, most of the artistic staff simply moves on to new locations. New studios pop up all the time. As far as innovation is concerned that is mostly up to the production committees that fund the majority of anime. They are the ones in charge of most shows including the more quirky ones.

Studios have two basic tasks that they need to do. First they have to provide quality work on time. This is most likely the most significant factor in their getting new contracts. The better they are at this the more they can charge for their services. Second, they need to manage their internal finances. The difference between what they are paid by the production committee and what they pay their employees is their profit. If they fail at the first task they don't get any work, if they fail at the second they don't make any money. By the end they are likely failing at both as Manglobe appears to have done.

As far as making risky, innovative shows with their own money, if that is what they did with those shows, that is all well and good but they still have to make money. Lose too much money on too many occasions and you go out of business. It is a simple fact of life.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:
Their main revenue is through merchandise. Remember, what keeps them afloat is their die hard fanbase hence why certain anime are seen as profitable instead of others.


Unless they are part of the production committee, they won't see any direct revenue from merchandise sales.

That said, if the continually make anime that creates a lot of merchandise sales, production committees, especially the members with the merchandise rights, will want them to do more work.

Likewise, as Justin mentioned, the animation studios usually don't earn money directly from good sales of the of the titles they work on. However they are likely to be given more work as a result of the success of their past projects.

Kadmos1 wrote:
So, when then there's a YT video of Greg Ayres doing an anime con panel that's anti-fansub/piracy, is Greg maybe overlooking the fact on how the complexities of how the studio's business decisions/practices work?


If piracy of any suddenly did magically dissapear, or diminish significantly, and revenue from media sales and streaming went up as a result, it would benefit everyone in the industry, including the animation studios, ANN, voice-actors, animators etc... They might not earn more money directly, but there would be more budget to spend with them.

Ayres isn't overlooking it. He probably understands well the complexities, but simplifies them for his audience.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
Which makes me wonder: Are they paid a lot? I see a lot of articles here talking about how animators, regardless of their rank, have very low wages.


No. Individual animators are not paid a lot. In-betweeners barely make a living wage. Key animators and supervisors make an okay wage, but even animation directors are merely eking out a modest middle class lifestyle. Because of this, a lot of them are leaving for other industries like video-gaming, where the wages are better.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:35 pm Reply with quote
ichii_1 wrote:

Michiko and Hatchin is what killed them.
They poured alot of money into it (400 million yen at the minimum) at a time where there was an economic bubble and the have never recovered since.


Where did you get this figure ?

400 million yen from only the animation studio (even though they are on the committee) seems very high.

They wouldn't be responsible for the entire budget, most of the other production committee members would have also put in money.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:37 pm Reply with quote
So skilled animators are in high demand, but the budgets the animation studios get aren't enough to provide them the paycheck incentive to stay at particular companies?
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GATSU



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:46 am Reply with quote
Buzz:
Quote:
That's an incredibly silly idea that would never work in practice,


Works better than them begging Kickstarter backers for a place to effing sleep. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
the only plausible solution is for animation studios to get themselves more forcefully inserted into production committees or to get better deals for the work they do.


If that were to happen, those committees would just set up shop in SE Asian countries neighboring Japan, instead.

Alan:
Quote:
First they have to provide quality work on time. This is most likely the most significant factor in their getting new contracts. The better they are at this the more they can charge for their services.


Uh, no. That's now how it works. Those greedy middlemen will simply exploit the animators even more, by paying them the same wages for a higher-tier product.

Quote:
Second, they need to manage their internal finances. The difference between what they are paid by the production committee and what they pay their employees is their profit.


You can't manage finances, if your patron makes you financially insolvent.

Tempest:
Quote:
That said, if the continually make anime that creates a lot of merchandise sales, production committees, especially the members with the merchandise rights, will want them to do more work.


Yeah, more work which involves continually dicking these animation studios out of a piece of that merchandise pie while paying them a pittance for their work which helped make the merch sales viable in the first place.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:45 am Reply with quote
@GATSU

I think you misunderstand me. I was talking about the studio making a profit not the animators being better paid. If the studio can develop a reputation for producing quality work on time they are more likely to be hired by the next production committee that needs a studio. Eventually they can charge more for their services. Note that this does not directly relate to how they treat their employees. Indirectly, in order to produce quality work on time you need good employees and may have to pay a bit more to them.

I was talking about the studio managing their internal finances. Not paying your employees any more that you actually have to is an example of such management. Certainly if a production committee will not pay enough to cover your expenses you are going to be insolvent. However, accepting work at a loss, or worse yet not knowing what your expenses will be is an example of bad management.

Exactly who do you mean when you refer to "greedy bastards"? The only people I see getting rich here are some members of the production committee. They are the ones putting up the money and accepting the risk. That is generally the way it works. The more risk you take the greater the piece of the pie when things go right. I don't see that changing ever.
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yuna49



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:46 pm Reply with quote
This all seems relevant to a question I mailed Justin in the past, but he didn't choose to answer. Does no one in the creative side of the industry collect "residuals" like they do here in America? Most actors depend on those monthly residual checks, especially people who appear in commercials. Is the model of flat fees up front and no profit-sharing depending on a show's performance characteristic of the entire Japanese entertainment industry, or just the anime industry?

I suspect part of the difference may have to do with unionization. Entertaimment craft unions have traditionally been strong in the US. I don't have the sense that anyone working in anime is unionized. Is that true?

I'd like think that Sakurai Takahiro collected a few yen when I bought Mononoke after its release in R1 last year.
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Yerld



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:36 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
This all seems relevant to a question I mailed Justin in the past, but he didn't choose to answer. Does no one in the creative side of the industry collect "residuals" like they do here in America? Most actors depend on those monthly residual checks, especially people who appear in commercials. Is the model of flat fees up front and no profit-sharing depending on a show's performance characteristic of the entire Japanese entertainment industry, or just the anime industry?

I suspect part of the difference may have to do with unionization. Entertaimment craft unions have traditionally been strong in the US. I don't have the sense that anyone working in anime is unionized. Is that true?

I'd like think that Sakurai Takahiro collected a few yen when I bought Mononoke after its release in R1 last year.


There's profit sharing for certain individuals, such as directors, writers, and creators on anime original productions.

You don't have to worry about top seiyuu since they're the high earners of the industry. Some command over $1 million US a year, with the average (amongst top rank seiyuu/singers, whatever that means) estimated to be around $700,000 US a year. They're celebrities in their own way and have been deemed a huge selling point, hence they reap the rewards (on the flipside, unpopular seiyuu make peanuts).

In that sense, it's not that there's no money to be made. Popular seiyuu, sound directors (since there are so few of them, and they're needed for every show), song writers, and scriptwriters can do very well. However, there is huge inequality in pay, and the people who tend to suffer the most are the "laborers" in production, such as animators.
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Desslok



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:27 am Reply with quote
So I guess that pretty much kills any chance of getting Samurai Flamenco on disc here in the states. Damn.
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st_owly



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Desslok wrote:
So I guess that pretty much kills any chance of getting Samurai Flamenco on disc here in the states. Damn.


It's coming out in the UK if you're OK with importing.
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Desslok



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:02 pm Reply with quote
It's not an ideal solution, but it'll do! I HAVE have my Samurai Flamenco on!
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yuna49



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:11 am Reply with quote
Yerld wrote:
There's profit sharing for certain individuals, such as directors, writers, and creators on anime original productions.

But not, I take it, on adaptations of existing material? My sense is that original productions constitute a quarter or less of the series produced each year. For adaptations do the studios just collect a flat fee and no residuals?

As for those seiyuu salaries, do they include earnings from singing and other activities outside of voice acting? I can imagine someone like Kanazawa Hana making a good living through her singing career. But what about "B-list" seiyuu who can't sing and aren't the kinds of names that would draw people to buy anime releases? Some of them presumably work in the videogame industry, which probably pays better than anime, and some dub foreign movies as well.

I have noticed, though, that animated films generally have an entirely distinct cast from made-for-TV anime. I watched Kaguya-hime recently and didn't recognize anyone in that cast. It seems like the film seiyuu and the TV seiyuu inhabit different worlds.
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