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The Neverending Debate over the End of Naruto


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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5888
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:36 am Reply with quote
SolidAndrew34 wrote:
Two things one about my Raikage comment he whole Hyuga affair with Neji's father is the guilt I was referring for his role in furthering conflict in the Naruto world.


It's not ever explained if Ay was the raikage involved in the messed up incident that involved the failed kidnapping of Hinata and the needless death of Neji's father.

Funnily enough though I do occasionally cite this incident as why it's hypocrital on top of forced for people to use Sasuke causing the loss of Ay's arm as one of those "alleged" villainous/irredeemable acts Sasuke supposedly committed in part 2 of the series and should've been executed or imprisoned for.
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getumbuck



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 197
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:55 am Reply with quote
I love how Kish just allowed Sasuke to get away with all the crap he pulled. I mean what kind of moral is that suppose to send to kids. That saying "I'm sorry", after spending years trying to kill your friends somehow makes up for it. I suppose it's better than his treatment of women, as simply baby factories in the end. After the second or third story arc in part 2 something just went wrong with this series. Kaguya ended up being the main villain, Zetsu the Anti Spiral, and everyone becomes Naruto's Facebook friend. Even Orochimaru was treated very badly in part 2 and Kish simply "wished" him back to life, forgetting that cursed seals weren't horcruxes. Worst thing Kish ever wrote though was The Great Snake Escape. That took ass pulls to a whole new level.


So yea, I like to remember Naruto for the good first half and the beginning of Part 2 and not the complete mess Kish turned it into during the final few arcs.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5888
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:01 pm Reply with quote
getumbuck wrote:
I love how Kish just allowed Sasuke to get away with all the crap he pulled. I mean what kind of moral is that suppose to send to kids. That saying "I'm sorry", after spending years trying to kill your friends somehow makes up for it.


I wasn't aware he was trying to send a message regarding Sasuke's actions during part 2 especially since he didn't bother with the Obligatory message of how revenge doesn't accomplish anything, regarding Itachi and Danzo's deaths. And if he had people would've largely ignored it anyway.

getumbuck wrote:
Even Orochimaru was treated very badly in part 2 and Kish simply "wished" him back to life,


He was never dead.
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KENZICHI



Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 1101
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:11 pm Reply with quote
I am one of those people who think NaruSasu makes more sense than 80%+ of the pairings that ended up canon in the end, but I can look past this. What I will never get over is Sasuke ending up with Sakura at the end. It's the absolute worst pairing I've ever seen happen in an anime. It just proves how desperate and stupid Sakura is to get with a guy that doesn't even love her. I would have even looked past them having one night together, which resulted in Salad, but actually getting married? Not everyone has to get married at the end Kishi. That's just bad writing.
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Charagon



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:24 pm Reply with quote
The real issue isn't just a shipping issue, but one of character development.


Sakura gets jack-all for character development throughout the series, in spite of supposedly being a main character. The one thing that would have truly shown her growth as a person would be the moment where she finally decides enough is enough with Sasuke.

She almost, ALMOST, does it once, then wimps out.

If she had actually let go of Sasuke, it would have served a two-fold purpose. It would have finally given her some growth as a character and it would have further isolated Sasuke from Konoha, leaving pretty much only Naruto (and maybe Kakashi) as his pseudo-friend.

Instead, what do we get? Sakura marries Sasuke, who immediately sticks her with another woman's baby and then leaves.


Why did Kishimoto even bother creating Sakura if he was just going to crap on her throughout the series?
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getumbuck



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 197
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:27 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
getumbuck wrote:
I love how Kish just allowed Sasuke to get away with all the crap he pulled. I mean what kind of moral is that suppose to send to kids. That saying "I'm sorry", after spending years trying to kill your friends somehow makes up for it.


I wasn't aware he was trying to send a message regarding Sasuke's actions during part 2 especially since he didn't bother with the Obligatory message of how revenge doesn't accomplish anything, regarding Itachi and Danzo's deaths. And if he had people would've largely ignored it anyway.

getumbuck wrote:
Even Orochimaru was treated very badly in part 2 and Kish simply "wished" him back to life,


He was never dead.


We'll he constantly had Naruto mention "saving" Sasuke from the darkness, yet constantly had him get away with doing evil. By the end all Sasuke had to do was say he was sorry and all was forgiven. Worse yet Kish allowed Sasuke to get the girl as well, one he frequently tried to kill.

The writing for Sasuke was horrible and sends a terrible messege to young reader. "Beat and try to kill a woman enough and she'll eventually love you". "It's alright to do evil and kill people, so long as you say sorry in the end".

And you're right he wasn't dead, he was trapped in a sword. He was still magicked back to freedom though.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5888
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:39 pm Reply with quote
getumbuck wrote:

Worse yet Kish allowed Sasuke to get the girl as well, one he frequently tried to kill.


I wouldn't consider two attempts one of which was justified self defense as "frequent". Though I'd understand the grievances on this if Sasuke wound up with Karin instead of Sakura i.e. the girl he stabbed to get to Danzo.

getumbuck wrote:
"It's alright to do evil and kill people,


More like attempt to do evil and kill people since Sasuke wasn't very good at either for all the times Kishimoto tried to needlessly set it up.

Charagon wrote:
it would have further isolated Sasuke from Konoha,


That honestly would've been a drop in already overflowing bucket.

Charagon wrote:


Instead, what do we get? Sakura marries Sasuke, who immediately sticks her with another woman's baby and then leaves.


Why do people keep insisting that Sarada is Karin's daughter when it's common knowledge she isn't?


Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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getumbuck



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 197
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:55 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
getumbuck wrote:

Worse yet Kish allowed Sasuke to get the girl as well, one he frequently tried to kill.


I wouldn't consider two attempts one of which was justified self defense as "frequent". Though I'd understand the grievances on this if Sasuke wound up with Karin instead of Sakura i.e. the girl he stabbed to get to Danzo.

getumbuck wrote:
"It's alright to do evil and kill people,


More like attempt to do evil and kill people since Sasuke wasn't very good at either for all the times Kishimoto tried to needlessly set it up.

Charagon wrote:


Instead, what do we get? Sakura marries Sasuke, who immediately sticks her with another woman's baby and then leaves.


Why do people keep insisting that Sarada is Karin's daughter when it's common knowledge she isn't?


It's just funny how Kish let Sasuke get away with everything. Ohh Sasuke only tried to kill Sakura twice, I love how that's actully being used as a excuse to defend Sasuke. Such a nice man. Sakura came out looking like a week fool in the end........."yea sorry".
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:21 pm Reply with quote
Guys, for those of you who think that Sasuke got off too easy, keep in mind, rule of shounen/kids shows dictates that, unless your character has killed an undebatably benign character, he is not beyond redemption.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:47 pm Reply with quote
"Officer, that man tried to kill my daughter twice."

"Well, he said he was sorry and he wants to date your daughter now."

Yeah that would go over very well......

Sasuke is evil. No one with a sane mind would forgive and forget his evil.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5888
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:54 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:

Sasuke is evil. No one with a sane mind would forgive and forget his evil.


The world of Naruto isn't exactly filled to the brim with sane or reasonable minds to start with much like the real world. So there's plenty of people with questionable judgement to take issue with and not just the ones that pardoned Sasuke for some supposedly evil and unforgivable acts.


Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:55 pm Reply with quote
Hey, I never said it was a mark of good writing. Just a painful staple of shounen and action cartoons. If your character hasn't succeeded at murdering someone (Vegeta, Sasuke, Prince Zuko, Hajime Saito, Hiei, Archer (F/SN), etc.) they aren't beyond redemption. The only exception I can think of is that Impmon (Or Beelzemon if you'd rather) killed spoiler[Leomon] in Digimon Tamers, but he gets redeemed. Then again, his victim wasn't exactly a beloved character.
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Suzuki_Miyu



Joined: 07 Nov 2015
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:01 pm Reply with quote
I still haven't finished the manga yet but it's pretty hard to avoid spoilers online so I know how the story ends and I really don't mind which characters ended up together. I do love reading NarutoxSasuke fanfics for fun but I knew that would never happen... I say just go with the flow.
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leatherhead333



Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 1187
Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:51 pm Reply with quote
Not even going to touch this again. Kind of already said my piece on the Kishi interview. Let's just say Hinata/Naruto is one of the WORST developed pairings I've seen and is a huge disappointment for one who actually rooted for the pair at one point. I see this article as a rather baseless defense of poor writing because "ACTION manga means you can't do romance at all!" and really the pairing didn't even make sense until Kishi needlessly killed off Neji to force them together. No to mention.............(grabs pills).......................nevermind Confused
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:20 pm Reply with quote
The weird thing is, Naruto and Hinata is the one couple that makes sense the most out of all of the people who end up together, poorly developed as it was.

Sai complimented Ino once. Now they're married. Sai is completely socially inept, so the fact that Ino never realized that this compliment meant nothing speaks volumes for her stupidity.

Don't get me started on all the horrible, horrible things Sasuke did and how Sakura deserves to die alone and afraid. Sasuke never, EVER, even before defecting, showed any interest in Sakura. Sakura, by all accounts, seemed to have gotten over Sasuke by the time the final arc began. This pairing was the most forced by far.

Temari and Shikamaru... this one could have worked if Kishimoto hinted at it a bit more, but the fact is, there wasn't a single scene where the two have shown any romantic interest in each other. The only times they were together were on village business.

I dunno if the shounen genre is really guaranteed to have bad romance, but this didn't need to be romance. Kishimoto just had to show the characters play off of each other somewhat and it would have been a respectable attempt. Instead, Kishimoto just assumes that if you're a guy and a girl likes you, you'll probably get married to her regardless of circumstance, a lack of attraction to the woman in question, and even regardless of whether or not you know the woman well. Sasuke loathed Sakura. Sai never thought anything of Ino. Shikamaru found Temari to be... who knows, but Kishimoto dropped zero hints, so I don't think he knew until the epilogue!

I bet if Jiraiya was alive, the epilogue would have him suddenly propose to Tsunade because the two of them interacted with what could vaguely be interpreted as sexual tension.

I'm not a shipper in any sense. My problem isn't that "Sasuke would be better with Karin" or "Temari would be better with Kiba" or whatever. My problem is that none of these pairings make sense in execution. In theory, they could work.
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