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The X Button - Vanishing Point


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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:51 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Paiprince wrote:
[

The "shift" is there because this group thrives on fear mongering and bully tactics to serve their agenda. They're not even above pulling really shady shit like fraud. Anita Sarkeesian is a bonified case example.

Business 101: Cater to those who buy your product, not those who won't.


Not sure what "shift" you mean. If you're insinuating that a vocal minority is responsible for single-handedly preventing a game from coming overseas, then I can only repeat that the industry itself is changing from within, indicating a shift in the majority, not a minority. Otherwise it sounds like you're equating "this group" (and I'm not even sure which group you mean at this point) with something like the Illuminati, some kind of group that's manipulating things behind the scenes.

As for your business advice, Tecmo is doing just that: sticking to a domestic market that takes less umbrage with how women are depicted in their media, and marketing their game to them.


Do I really have to spell it out for you? I think I made it clear when I mentioned Anita, but for the sake of clarity here it goes Shonen Jump Weekly or cultural marxist or whatever label you fancy. Their influence in the industry has not only tarnished the reputation of Games Journalism but has also gone on a fear campaign to persecute those who do not fit or agree with their self imposed agenda. I didn't really believe this whole thing was true during the Gamergate days, but this incident opened my eyes.

And love how you're defending their decision of basically blocking a potential group of revenue assuming they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Yes, KT are real saints for not offending a non market. Rolling Eyes

Chagen46 wrote:

Everything about this post is fractally wrong to such an extent I wonder how a sentient human being could have written it and thought they were making the slightest modicum of a point.


Care to explain why it is? I'd surely love to know.


Last edited by Paiprince on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2858
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:53 pm Reply with quote
some of you seem to be forgetting a very important matter, video game developers are also people, and as such, they don't like being called sexist or mysoginist, which is a very disporportionate insult; I mean, you being people who watch anime shoudl already know the feelnig of being called pedophile just because you watch anime.


Chagen46 wrote:
Best part about this "controversy" is that I have not seen a SINGLE Space Jam Wizard actually boycott or complain about DOAEX3.


what, you did not read the article this topic is linked to ?
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:54 pm Reply with quote
We poisoned the well and then act surprised when no one wants to drink from it. Well... it's their "choice" not to drink from the poisoned well. No one is *forcing* them not to drink from the poisoned well...
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:57 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:


Do I really have to spell it out for you? I think I made it clear when I mentioned Anita, but for the sake of clarity here it goes a person I disagree with politically or cultural marxist or whatever label you fancy. Their influence in the industry has not only tarnished the reputation of Games Journalism but has also gone on a fear campaign to persecute those who do not fit or agree with their self imposed agenda. I didn't really believe this whole thing was true during the Gamergate days, but this incident opened my eyes.

And love how you're defending their decision of basically blocking a potential group of revenue assuming they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Yes, KT are real saints for not offending a non market. Rolling Eyes


Actually, that doesn't clear up anything at all, since I don't know your personal politics. Thus telling me that "this group" is made up of "people I disagree with" tells me next to nothing without knowing you personally.

Also, you're putting words in my mouth again. Re-read my posts. I've stated that Tecmo has the right to do whatever they like with their IP, even if a market and/or fanbase disagrees with that decision. I've mentioned nothing about the reasons behind locking out a market aside from possible business decisions (the previous two games not selling as well as the main franchise) and the market possibly being unwelcoming to the kind of game they are marketing.

Those are all reasonable business decisions that have a basis in logic. It's not about not offending a particular demographic nor about being saintly. They read the Western market, viewed it as untenable for this product, and made a business decision based on that.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:58 pm Reply with quote
maximilianjenus wrote:


Chagen46 wrote:
Best part about this "controversy" is that I have not seen a SINGLE Space Jam Wizard actually boycott or complain about DOAEX3.


what, you did not read the article this topic is linked to ?


I frequent Space Jam Wizard-filled areas. The overall opinion has been utter indifference and laughing at gamerbros who are throwing a complete shitfit.

You do realize that you're valiantly defended a really trashy and mediocre ecchi game, right? Like dude, this is the hill you're dying on. A T&A game. There are terabytes of anime cheesecake and porn out there for free if you need to beat off.


Last edited by Chagen46 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:58 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:

Well. Please don't refer to me as "sister". It comes off as very patronizing.

Regarding your statement, sure. Demand all you like. I'm not saying that you can't, nor that you shouldn't. I'm just saying Tecmo has no obligation to listen to you, and that they have so far decided not to make DOAX3 available in this market.


Case in point. You really shouldn't be bothered about that seeing as how I'm as prepared to be called names by those who disagree. This is the internet after all.

They should, if they want a profit. Games are not cheap. A business should always maximize the amount of revenue it gets out of its wares. Prohibiting them to a certain group of customers for arbitrary reasons is almost to the level of discrimination. The customers are grown adults, not children who should be told this or that and just have to take it.

Chagen46 wrote:

You do realize that you're valiantly defended a really trashy and mediocre ecchi game, right? Like dude, this is the hill you're dying on. A T&A game. There are terabytes of anime cheesecake and porn out there for free if you need to beat off.


And that somehow gives them a free pass to not sell it to people? Now, who's the robot now? Oh, and the "hurr why don't you just fap to porn" retort. Classic.

Edit:
whiskeyii wrote:

Actually, that doesn't clear up anything at all, since I don't know your personal politics. Thus telling me that "this group" is made up of "people I disagree with" tells me next to nothing without knowing you personally.

Also, you're putting words in my mouth again. Re-read my posts. I've stated that Tecmo has the right to do whatever they like with their IP, even if a market and/or fanbase disagrees with that decision. I've mentioned nothing about the reasons behind locking out a market aside from possible business decisions (the previous two games not selling as well as the main franchise) and the market possibly being unwelcoming to the kind of game they are marketing.

Those are all reasonable business decisions that have a basis in logic. It's not about not offending a particular demographic nor about being saintly. They read the Western market, viewed it as untenable for this product, and made a business decision based on that.


ANN filters the term to that. It's "S ocial J ustice W arrior"

And you keep defending their decisions as if it was completely sound because they don't want to bother getting some scorn from groups who really should have no power in dictating what gets released here, but now they do. When games like Senran Kagura, Oneechanbara and Lollipop Chainsaw manage to come out of the fire unscathed, it's just baffling why this in particular suddenly is not OK.

Chagen46 wrote:

I frequent Space Jam Wizard-filled areas. The overall opinion has been utter indifference and laughing at gamerbros who are throwing a complete shitfit.


Maybe here and at Kotaku/Polygon/Gamespot, but certainly not everywhere else, but thanks for acknowledging the fans as "gamerbros" not knowing the true gamerbros would not touch this with a 10 foot pole.


Last edited by Paiprince on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:07 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:
whiskeyii wrote:

Well. Please don't refer to me as "sister". It comes off as very patronizing.

Regarding your statement, sure. Demand all you like. I'm not saying that you can't, nor that you shouldn't. I'm just saying Tecmo has no obligation to listen to you, and that they have so far decided not to make DOAX3 available in this market.


Case in point. You really shouldn't be bothered about that seeing as how I'm as prepared to be called names by those who disagree. This is the internet after all.


So, I shouldn't be bothered by being called a name I find patronizing...because YOU wouldn't be bothered by that hypothetical incident? You do realize you and I are different people with different standards, yes?

I fail to see how agreeing to a polite request in any way affects the validity of your argument. You're not losing anything by going "Kay, won't call you that."

Paiprince wrote:

They should, if they want a profit. Games are not cheap. A business should always maximize the amount of revenue it gets out of its wares. Prohibiting them to a certain group of customers for arbitrary reasons is almost to the level of discrimination. The customers are grown adults, not children who should be told this or that and just have to take it.


Yes, I know the cost of games. I work in games. And games are made to sell. If the higher ups think a game won't sell in a particular market (because the cost of shipping the games, marketing the games, localizing the games, dubbing the games, etc. will exceed the projected sales profit), then it makes perfect sense to not market that game in that region.

Could a cultural gap be the reason a game isn't sold in a region? Sure. I gave the Ace Attorney example earlier. That doesn't invalidate a decision to not localize a given game. It's still a valid business reason. And to be totally honest, you DON'T have to "just take it". In this case, you can import the game and play it with English subs.
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Deus257



Joined: 12 Apr 2014
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:11 pm Reply with quote
Mr. Oshawott wrote:
While I have little interest in buying Dead or Alive: Xtreme 3, I'm seriously disheartened that it's destined to be only Japanese-exclusive. Sad All simply for the reason that some vocal minority who have an aversion to sexual content is so insistent that the title be censored so that the content will appeal to their personal tastes. Fortunately, the DoAX3 fanbase is working feverishly setting up petitions in an attempt to get KOEI Tecmo to reconsider. I can only wonder what will happen from there.


Let's be honest, this is a case of 2 vocal minorities. The DOA fanbase in north America has been in decline for some years now and sales have been going down to the point that the main Series sells well but sales have been going down and the Ex series hasn't really sold as well and the sales of EX2 and Paradise show it. Sure to some those are good numbers but to a company Like Koei-Tecmo, those aren't good numbers, pretty much making DOAEX a niche franchise compared to the main franchise. Sure there was outcry against Ex3, but there was also outcry when the first iterations were released and guess what, they ended up released, I don't see why K-T decided to suddenly buckle this time.

If you can buy the game from Play-Asia or AmiAmi, do it, otherwise don't waste the efforts trying to get K-T to bring it here, it'll probably be watered down or worse a limited release.

Believe me, I'm someone whose fought the good fight before and won, but in the end it was bitter win that felt more like a loss and the big guys ended winning out in the end.
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 593
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:15 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Paiprince wrote:
whiskeyii wrote:

Well. Please don't refer to me as "sister". It comes off as very patronizing.

Regarding your statement, sure. Demand all you like. I'm not saying that you can't, nor that you shouldn't. I'm just saying Tecmo has no obligation to listen to you, and that they have so far decided not to make DOAX3 available in this market.


Case in point. You really shouldn't be bothered about that seeing as how I'm as prepared to be called names by those who disagree. This is the internet after all.


So, I shouldn't be bothered by being called a name I find patronizing...because YOU wouldn't be bothered by that hypothetical incident? You do realize you and I are different people with different standards, yes?

I fail to see how agreeing to a polite request in any way affects the validity of your argument. You're not losing anything by going "Kay, won't call you that."

Paiprince wrote:

They should, if they want a profit. Games are not cheap. A business should always maximize the amount of revenue it gets out of its wares. Prohibiting them to a certain group of customers for arbitrary reasons is almost to the level of discrimination. The customers are grown adults, not children who should be told this or that and just have to take it.


Yes, I know the cost of games. I work in games. And games are made to sell. If the higher ups think a game won't sell in a particular market (because the cost of shipping the games, marketing the games, localizing the games, dubbing the games, etc. will exceed the projected sales profit), then it makes perfect sense to not market that game in that region.

Could a cultural gap be the reason a game isn't sold in a region? Sure. I gave the Ace Attorney example earlier. That doesn't invalidate a decision to not localize a given game. It's still a valid business reason. And to be totally honest, you DON'T have to "just take it". In this case, you can import the game and play it with English subs.


Just as much reason why should I go out of my way to be some "gentleman" but whatever let's not make this into another ad hominem argument. Duly noted.

And you do realize there are those who do not want to go through the hoops and markups that is importing? For something that is niche, there still are those who'd rather pick it up at a local store at MSRP prices. Your logic is flawed and unsympathetic to the average consumer.


Last edited by Paiprince on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:17 pm Reply with quote
maximilianjenus wrote:
some of you seem to be forgetting a very important matter, video game developers are also people, and as such, they don't like being called sexist or mysoginist, which is a very disporportionate insult; I mean, you being people who watch anime shoudl already know the feelnig of being called pedophile just because you watch anime.


One of my coworkers made an off-hand mention that she couldn't understand any adult who still watched cartoons, and that they were probably pedophiles. I assume that also meant all those Cartoon Network/Nickelodeon adult viewers and not just anime, but yes. The stigma is still around.

It's also why the whole notion of making a very unfriendly environment seems realistic to me. There's often complaints about the lack of diversity in media, but when people do try to write minorities they tend to get picked apart. I imagine most companies just would rather not bother. At least here in the western game industry. Japan is legendary for not giving a crap about anything people complain about. They'll still make the games they want, they just wont be localized and stay in Japan.

Part of me really wonders if this is some kind of publicity stunt to drum up interest in the game, though. Controversy helped games like Dragon's Crown and Hatred sell a lot more than what they originally predicted due to the outcry on the internet. It would be a brilliant move on Koei Tecmo's part to make a big stink about not releasing DoAX3 here and then at the last second say "Oh fine, I guess we will if you're going to beg" and have more sales than before from all the people who want to support the game as a jab against Suspicious Jurassic Wombats. It doesn't really matter to me since I have no problems importing games and routinely import games I know wont ever be released here like PhotoKano, Oreimo, and Yu-Gi-Oh.

The whole issue on female portrayal seemed like one of those unanswerable questions. For all the complaints you see about characters like Quiet, I notice that far more women cosplay as Quiet or other 'moe' Japanse game girls, or get a lot more fanart than female characters who get praised for being 'realistic' or 'non-sexualized'. So who knows what that tells us. Maybe a division between people who appreciate art and design over realism, or something. To be honest, I try to ignore all this discussion and just play games because no one's ever going to agree.

-Stuart Smith
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:21 pm Reply with quote
I've bundled my reply so it doesn't get missed.

Paiprince wrote:

ANN filters the term to that. It's "S ocial J ustice W arrior"

And you keep defending their decisions as if it was completely sound because they don't want to bother getting some scorn from groups who really should have no power in dictating what gets released here, but now they do. When games like Senran Kagura, Oneechanbara and Lollipop Chainsaw manage to come out of the fire unscathed, it's just baffling why this in particular suddenly is not OK.


Ah. Now that you've stated that out in the open, I can address that fully.

1. I have never defended the actions of Space Jam Wizards. I have only defended the right of Tecmo to do as they please with their IP.

2. Space Jam Wizards are not the dominating force for change in how women are portrayed in games. As I have stated many, many times before, the industry is changing from within. I have had the chance to hear a variety of developers speak on this issue, and they generally agree: there should be more variety in female characters, and that female developers tend to get the short end of the stick and it sucks.

3. Why is this game suddenly not okay? To be fair, we don't know that it's not. Play-Asia posted a provocative tweet that made them an easy target, but Tecmo is assuming that this game will be torn to pieces because of a more feminist market/journalistic bent. But it could easily be brushed off with a "Yeah, it's got big titties." From my point of view, Tecmo is making a possible molehill into an imaginary mountain, since there is nothing to definitively prove one way or another how the market or the press will respond to the game, especially as nothing particularly salacious has been shown so far.

Paiprince wrote:

Just as much reason why should I go out of my way to be some "gentleman" but whatever. Duly noted.


Much appreciated.

Paiprince wrote:

And you do realize there are those who do not want to go through the hoops and markups that is importing? For something that is niche, there still are those who'd rather pick it up at a local store at MSRP prices. Your logic is flawed and unsympathetic to the average consumer.


Actually, I was in this particular boat back when Xenoblade Chronicles was declined for a North American release. The advice folks got then was the same you get now: import it. And yeah, that would've been a pain, had Nintendo not changed their tune once people put their money where their mouth was and allowed other publishers to pick up the slack.

So my logic is not so much unsympathetic as it is practical. The chances of Tecmo changing their mind seem, at this moment, slim to none (especially if the sales info Deus257 posted above is true). Therefore, your only reasonable chance of playing this game (and also, by extension, putting your money where your mouth is, like with Xenoblade) is to import it. At the very least, the game is translated to the point where it is understandable, which is much more than most games denied a localization can say.
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Northlander



Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 900
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Northlander wrote:


As was the whole "Chao raising thing", but at least I didn't HAVE to do that to complete the game.


Dude.

Chao raising was literally the best part of the Adventure games and 95% of why I play them. I have dumped hundreds of hours into them and I still haven't stopped. I bought Sonic Adventure 2 four (Twice on Gamecube, then once on PS3 and PC) times just to raise Chao, I don't care about the rest of the game at all.

My point is: it was optional. You could play it if you wanted to, and you could ignore it if you didn't. I brought it on as an example because I DIDN'T care for it, but since I didn't have to play it either (possibly except for the whole part where they're introduced), I didn't see it as a problem to the game itself. Choosing to play it or not does not take anything away from the main game.

The Big the Cat levels, however, had to be played and completed if you wanted to get to the game's ending, so if you didn't care for THAT particular diversion (which I certainly didn't), you were in for a session of tedium you did not have the option to skip.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:33 pm Reply with quote
Alright for starters Paiprince and whiskeyii stop the arguing. Neither of you is listening to the other and you're dragging the thread down so just stop. Move on and don't respond to each other anymore.

You've already been warned by Willag recently Paiprince about rudely arguing with other users. This is the 2nd time in as many weeks you've been warned about this. The next time we have to warn you to be civil towards other users you'll be facing moderation. Secondly Paiprince stop soap boxing on the topic of social justice you know whos. Your soap boxing on the topic is getting OT and just redundant. The term is also blocked for a reason so stop trying to get around the filter.

That last part applies for everyone else as well. Any further discussion on that topic will be removed as it's off topic and it also simply always ends in flame wars. So don't do it. Thanks.
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strawberry-kun



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 299
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:34 pm Reply with quote
Another problem with importing the new DoAX3 is the DLC issue. That's the main thing for me. I'm sure there's going to be a ton of DLC, but you can't buy the DLC with a US account which is easy enough to solve. The bigger pain is that you can't use US dollars to buy DLC on the Asian version. You have to buy PSN cards unless I've heard wrong. As much as I want this, it's too much of a pain to buy Asian region PSN cards whenever I want new DLC.
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Deus257



Joined: 12 Apr 2014
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:49 pm Reply with quote
In all the hubbub I didn't notice Disaster Report 4 being announced, awesome Smile
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