Forum - View topicNEWS: Gekidol Project Combining Theater, Anime, Idols to Launch in Spring
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Sunny milk
Posts: 695 |
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No, it's more like I look at the girls at the context of the general artstyle of their series.
As such, I can't look at Chiya as anything but a teenage girl (a well endowed one at that), while Tomoyo is a child. In fact, there isn't a whole lot people who call anyone out of Gochiusa a loli that's not part of ChiMaMe, or maybe Sharo. |
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Kikaioh
 Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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Color me wary, but you originally said that girls didn't look any younger now than back in the day --- then, made a 360 and said that the 90's were a different time --- and now you seem to be saying that it's context-sensitive, like you're admitting that modern characters might look younger, but so long as you know their actual ages in the context of the show's style, they'll seem older. TBH, you really haven't made much of a case at all to counter my perceptions. I can rattle off a number of modern and even upcoming shows (just look on the frontpage of ANN for examples) that reflect this "female teenage characters that look like children" trend, but you're not really making a case that this is something that's always been around since the 70's. You mentioned though, that this was also a thing back in the early aughts? Are there shows from that time period that you could mention that are the same as what we see in like GochiUsa? I'm just starting to wonder where exactly your perceptions are coming from.
And you know, the classic approach to rendering children in art involves 1. a shorter height, 2. a relatively larger head and eyes in scale, and 3. proportionally shorter limbs. That was part of the amusement of the cartoony chibi artstyle back in the 80's and 90's, but in the modern day seems to be used more specifically to portray teenage characters as children. In which case, I'm not sure how you could be surprised that people look at these characters and see kids, because that's basically how they're being rendered. And based on how I've seen the anime scene change over the years, I think it's wholly intentional, in order to appeal to the otaku protective moe feeling, as well as to the tastes of loli fans. I wonder though, how do you account for Denki-Gai's art style, where the female leads effectively look like children compared to the male characters in the show? Even people in my local anime club were scratching their heads on that one, and that's a particularly racy series. |
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Rederoin
 Posts: 1427 Location: Europa |
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If pointing out using high schoolers/middle schoolers as main characters is not a recent trend(recent, last few years), or not creepy is getting 'defensive', then what is writing multiple long paragraphs about how it is a recent/creepy?
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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For one, it's not the use of high schoolers/middle schoolers that's creepy, it's the fact that they're drawn like pre-adolescent children. For two, I'm not actually being defensive at the moment, I find it fascinating to seemingly discover that modern Western anime fans might be entirely unaware that these character designs are being skewed younger at all, as though you're so saturated in the modern experience to a point where you actually look at these current designs and think "high school teen" instead of "little kid". Regarding the recentness of the trend, if you can justify your perspective in the context of anime art design history, then maybe I'll reconsider --- but so far I haven't heard much compelling thoughts/evidence to the contrary. TBH, I'm starting to get the perception that you all might not actually be much familiar with older works (most fans are generally only familiar with popular 90's works like Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon, but maybe not so much less mainstream outings like Captain Tylor, Lost Universe, Shinesman, or New Dominion Tank Police). To be clear, I'm actually very interested in art in general, and the way these modern designs are perceived is something of interest to me (tbh, I thought you all were fully aware that these designs were skewing young), so atm I'm more interested to hear your point of view than to start a debate. |
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Sunny milk
Posts: 695 |
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The problem is that you base the whole argument on a wrong assumption, that these characters look somehow very young, when all I (and possibly most people) can see is them being average teenagers, for example older looking than Sailor Moon's Usagi (not Crystal's though), or for example Lina Inverse/Amelia.
Yet you are so entitled about your opinion that you think it's somehow a fact that these girls look pre-adolescent, whereas I'd say only the glasses girl looks under 15-ish of age. I don't understand how you even think these girls look anywhere as young as Tomoyo does, even to a degree that you post her multiple times, yet completely ignore how her head to body ratio is that of a child, unlike any example you've posted. Like I said, the artstyle has become different, more cutesy in general, which can be associated with youth, but looking at the characters as a whole, they don't look young at all. Overly cutified, yes, but young? Not especially. And drawn like pre-adolescent children? Definitely not. You want me to find evidence or counter-argument against something I don't think exists at all, so there's nothing for me to dig up. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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Okay... let's try one more thing. Here are two images comparing and contrasting one of the Gekidol girls, Lina Inverse (14 years old) and Usagi (14 years old).
This first image compares their heights accounting for relative scale. Across the characters, skull sizes are similar, limb proportions are fairly in scale, and generally they look human compared to each other. 
This second image compares their heights if they were all made equal across the board. To me, Lina and Usagi look like miniaturized humans compared to the Gekidol girl. 
Now your honest opinion: does the second picture really look normal to you, more so than the first? |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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Kikaioh--
With all due respect, I believe that that you are beating a dead horse here. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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@nobahn: With all due respect, I'm replying to posts that had been directed at me, politely at that. I also have to question why you would single me out on this particular case, as rederoin has made posts regarding similar topics in the past, I haven't in recent years discussed the perceived age of characters (not to my memory at least), and since I'm making reasonable responses to Sunny Milk. If you want the topic of conversation to stop then I'll oblige, but I question being singled out when I'm replying to posts that have been directed at me, especially when I'm particularly curious about Sunny Milk's point of view.
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Rederoin
Posts: 1427 Location: Europa |
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lol, I was not the one who brought up the supposed recent 'trend' of an ime with high school/middle school aged girls(which must a wide defintion recent, since its been the case since the early 2000s.. or even earlier, late 80s maybe even?)
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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@rederoin: Again, you keep insisting it's a discussion about the modern prevalence of high school/middle school girls --- which it's not. The discussion is about the modern portrayed physicality of female characters being younger than their specified age. I've personally not been in a discussion about that particular topic in recent years (if ever) and I was curious as to whether modern Western anime fans sincerely don't even notice the anatomical differences over the years. If so, it would change my perception of modern Western fandom a bit (assuming Sunny Milk is somewhat representative). Either way rederoin, you were the one to take issue with the "recent" wording (despite apparently misunderstanding what it was in reference to), and so I was obliged to respond.
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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There is a trend in modern anime to draw characters in a way that abstracts from age. It's as if showing "age" is bad because it goes against the whole otaku "pure" waifu concept. After all it's the reason why real life idols can't have a relationship lest fans go on a killing spree. 
Take a very simple example : Hokuto no Ken from the 1980s. This anime has a lot of female characters. From kids to young adults and mature women. You can see the difference even if you're blind. The artist knew how to draw adult looking female bodies and kid bodies. And the two are not the same. In Gundam Thunderbolt we once again have adult looking females. In the other Gundams series IBO on the other hand all female characters are drawn shall we say in a kid-like way. Even adult characters. Things get worse in Madoka Magica where all the female characters are drawn like they were 8 year olds and that includes the parents. And this is done on purpose to titillate the otaku fandom. Otaku fandom is not a healthy fandom, and anime by having being driven off prime time tv has had to chase and bow down to the "idealistic perversions" of this fandom. Of course most anime fans enter into defensive mode when these issue are discussed. Nobody likes to say that their hobby is unhealthy. But anime has a lot of unhealthy parts. And most fans just accept it as if it were normal. It is not. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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@Cptn_Taylor: I generally agree, and that's been my perception too as far as Japanese fandom, though Sunny Milk is maybe the first person I've met who seems to honestly see those younger-looking female portrayals as being much older. It made me wonder if so much time has passed, that maybe modern Western anime fans have gotten so used to seeing those younger female character portrayals in anime, that they now think it's a normal artstyle in Japan, without any perception that the designs might actually intentionally be skewing younger. I remember it causing a lot of confusion when Lucky Star came out back in the mid-aughts, and now I wonder if it's become so mainstream that people actually don't even notice anymore.
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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Kikaioh--
We've been getting complaints about your postings in this thread; I feel compelled to ask you that when responding to others in this thread, that that you strictly limit your replies to what is directed to you -- and write nothing more. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. |
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Rederoin
Posts: 1427 Location: Europa |
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Yet we never hear anything about how wanting characters to look cute is unhealthy. It all just screams "Its unhealthy because I don't like it" to me. Oh sure, adult men loving cutesy stuff is not normal in the U.S, but anime is not from the U.S, now is it? It should really be no surprise to anybody even slightly familiar with Japanese culture that its entertainment media would have a lot of cutesy stuff. |
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Sunny milk
Posts: 695 |
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Cute and simplified != child looking.
If you take a look at your comparison images, you can see a lot of features being more childish on Lina and Usagi than the Gekidol girl (much bigger eyes, smaller face and smaller BODY!) It's the ridiculously long legs that's not present anymore. |
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