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INTEREST: New Osaka Otaku Cafe Is Strictly Nerdy Girls Only


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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:11 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
It's always disconcerting to hear about gender segregation in Japan, it seems to suggest that there's either friction between the genders, or a strong belief in "gender roles/identities", neither of which sounds good to me.


There's nothing wrong with segregation, but Americans have a particular sordid history with it which has made the concept taboo and bring back thoughts of the mid 1900s. But it's not as if its never seen as a positive thing. Gay bars segregate straight and gay people, and some even outright ban women at all from coming inside, and there's dating sites that only allow certain races/religions/cultures to use, like black-only dating sites. Even colleges generally have fraternities and sororities.

Segregation events and establishments is just a way for people of similar sex, race, hobbies, or whatever to converge and hang out. I don't see anything wrong with it inherently. There's plenty of establishments for both men and women in Japan. It's kind of nice to see Japan doing stuff like this without any kind of social backlash that you'd see in western cultures because it leads to a lot of creative and interesting shops. I remember seeing a BL-themed cafe in Japan, but the fact they only hire males and reject all female applicants might not work because that would be seen as discriminatory hiring practices.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1524
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:01 pm Reply with quote
Guile wrote:
Gay bars segregate straight and gay people, and some even outright ban women at all from coming inside


No gay bar that I've ever been in has ever put a ban on straight people.

As for this place, it looks and sounds...okay, I guess. But I think that rather then giving women a place where they can feel safe, more work should be done to ensure that they can feel safe anywhere.

I don't think places like this pop up just because people think they'll be nice to have. A part of it is because these people and groups feel ostracized and don't have anywhere to turn to. They're given sanctuary, but world shouldn't be where they have to resort to it. Especially because of things they can't control, such as gender, race and sexuality.


Last edited by Shenl742 on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:08 pm Reply with quote
For an all-girls café, the place looks pretty boring. Most gender-neutral cafés had much more vivacity going on than what I'm seeing here. Perhaps that'll change as the staff gets bigger?
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AJ (LordNikon)



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Kyoto
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:25 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
In the US many states have similar provisions in their Civil Rights prohibiting discrimination in places of public accommodation, for things like sex, race etc. Not sure what the situation is on the federal level though?



It is a by the federal constitution that ALL people are treated equality, and not by some of the states.


Kikaioh wrote:
it seems to suggest that there's either friction between the genders, or a strong belief in "gender roles/identities", neither of which sounds good to me.

IIRC, Train Molestation is a thing. It's the reason for the Women-Only Carriages octopodpie mentioned



Yes, and it's a stupid band aid that does nothing to address the actual problem with how women in general are treated inside Japanese society. It's like saying "boys will be boys" and since we can't do anything to curtail the behavior, it's just easier to separate them.


[quote="Hoppy800"][quote="octopodpie"]
Blanchimont wrote:
For Japan there are prior examples, at least a few concerts have been mentioned here on ANN of concerts that were gender-specific....

Also pod hotels, they are still for men only.


Not exactly, the capsule hotels cater to both males and females but it is gender separated similar to many hostels or dorms.


PS: Hope I didn't get all the quotes mixed up, I'm old, like very old, and all these little black letters on the iPad are tough to read and even tougher to attribute.
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Shirohae



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 776
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:54 pm Reply with quote
I am not nerdy enough.... Crying or Very sad Laughing Laughing
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:08 pm Reply with quote
Some of the discussion made me interested in the topic, and so I did some research to find out how gender-based segregation is handled in the United States. As it turns out, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (which prevents discrimination in public accommodations, such as restaurants, stores, hotels, etc.) is only applicable on the basis of race, color, religion or nationality, and surprisingly, not gender. A number of states expand those protections to cover other groups (such as homosexuals), but it's interesting that Federal Law allows the right to refuse service on the basis of sex.

That said, it still makes me pose the question "why discriminate in the case of an otaku cafe?" For example from what I understand in the US, some cases where gender discrimination is considered acceptable for public accommodations are restroom facilities, or women's gyms with equipment that's specifically tailored for female anatomy. When it comes to an otaku cafe though, what is it about the presence of men that's seen as a negative? Do female otaku feel uncomfortable around men? Or is it perceived that certain manga/otaku-centric activities are meant to be enjoyed by women and not men? My first impression is that those particular reasons would be negative (not in the sense of being poor excuses, but in the sense that it's unfortunate women might feel intimidated by the presence of men, or that certain otaku activities might be seen as gender-specific). Hearkening to an example mentioned earlier though, the idea of creating a store where girls won't have to worry about their makeup sounds like a silly reason to bar men from entry to the store, so I wonder for female patrons who would want to frequent that sort of establishment, what the reasoning might actually be for them to want to be separated from men.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:23 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:


That said, it still makes me pose the question "why discriminate in the case of an otaku cafe?" For example from what I understand in the US, some cases where gender discrimination is considered acceptable for public accommodations are restroom facilities, or women's gyms with equipment that's specifically tailored for female anatomy. When it comes to an otaku cafe though, what is it about the presence of men that's seen as a negative? Do female otaku feel uncomfortable around men? Or is it perceived that certain manga/otaku-centric activities are meant to be enjoyed by women and not men? My first impression is that those particular reasons would be negative (not in the sense of being poor excuses, but in the sense that it's unfortunate women might feel intimidated by the presence of men, or that certain otaku activities might be seen as gender-specific). Hearkening to an example mentioned earlier though, the idea of creating a store where girls won't have to worry about their makeup sounds like a silly reason to bar men from entry to the store, so I wonder for female patrons who would want to frequent that sort of establishment, what the reasoning might actually be for them to want to be separated from men.


A lot of Japanese women are not very open about being an Otaku unlike the guys because they'll face ridicule by both guys (even Otaku because many male Otaku cringe at some of the stuff the females like and do) and other girls who aren't Otaku. Female Otaku also tend to be a lot shyer and self conscious than the guys are. Then there's the fact that it's harder to find people they relate to by hobby than the guys as they get older, it's much easy for a 30-35 year old male Otaku to find some like minded people through various events and conventions, it helps if they are more than 1 category of Otaku.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:51 pm Reply with quote
When I was in high school our gym classes were segregated into boys and girls, I'm not sure why. The only time we ever met was when we were doing swimming since we only had one pool, so the only time we saw the girls was when they were in their swimsuits, so if it was some kind of modesty/hormonal reason for the segregation it kind of backfired.

Shenl742 wrote:
As for this place, it looks and sounds...okay, I guess. But I think that rather then giving women a place where they can feel safe, more work should be done to ensure that they can feel safe anywhere.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the 'safe space' mindset, at least not the mindset that American groups are talking about. These kinds of cafes are common and have been around for years. It's all marketing and capitalizing on a demographic. American social issues aren't exactly a thing in Japan.

Kikaioh wrote:
When it comes to an otaku cafe though, what is it about the presence of men that's seen as a negative? Do female otaku feel uncomfortable around men? Or is it perceived that certain manga/otaku-centric activities are meant to be enjoyed by women and not men?


When you're dealing with a subculture that's made up of a lot of socially awkward people, yes. The article specifically mentions being shy and awkward around people of the opposite sex, so being around just girls or just guys is a big stress reliever.

Hobby-wise, otaku and fujoshi generally have different interests when it comes to being skeevy. You're not going to find much support or interest in BL doujinshi with guys, or support from women with male-focused doujinshi. Also the dedication to sewing and cosplay would indicate there might be changing rooms and girls might be more comfortable trying on potential cosplay outfits without worrying about guys around to see them, like a female locker room.

-Stuart Smith


Last edited by Stuart Smith on Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:54 pm Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:
Blanchimont wrote:
For Japan there are prior examples, at least a few concerts have been mentioned here on ANN of concerts that were gender-specific...


Based on a recent trip to Japan, this is very common in both directions. There are train cars designated only for women. There are multi-level stores with certain floors for either men or women only. I saw men only floors in adult shops and female only floors in arcades. The latter includes those popular picture machines.


Train cars designated only for women are the result of many many women getting molested/groped/fondled by men in standard cars.
Funny for a society that according to many is not sexually repressed (because of all the explicit sex depicted in manga/anime etc...) to have to resort to these kind of extremist solutions to keep women safe.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:01 pm Reply with quote
Ahhh I see. While feelings of shyness and awkwardness are unfortunate and understandable, I think what really made sense was the idea of female cosplay being a privacy concern, since that's much more of an ingrained cultural divide between the genders even here in the West.

That said, the mention of female-only floors in arcades does seem to point at deeper issues between the genders though, since I'm not sure what the reasoning there might be.
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Amiantos



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Cptn_Taylor wrote:
octopodpie wrote:
Blanchimont wrote:
For Japan there are prior examples, at least a few concerts have been mentioned here on ANN of concerts that were gender-specific...


Based on a recent trip to Japan, this is very common in both directions. There are train cars designated only for women. There are multi-level stores with certain floors for either men or women only. I saw men only floors in adult shops and female only floors in arcades. The latter includes those popular picture machines.


Train cars designated only for women are the result of many many women getting molested/groped/fondled by men in standard cars.
Funny for a society that according to many is not sexually repressed (because of all the explicit sex depicted in manga/anime etc...) to have to resort to these kind of extremist solutions to keep women safe.

Those cars are pretty much on just a handfull of lines, if that many. I've used a ton of lines here in tokyo and only saw 1 line that had a couple women only cars.
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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 752
Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:28 pm Reply with quote
I can imagine only cis women are allowed. Transgender, or at the very least, pre-surgery transgender women may be barred.

Nope, bad idea.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:44 pm Reply with quote
It's only a matter of time before a boy winds up getting mixed in (through crossdressing, connections, etc) and this becomes their own harem anime IRL. Anime hyper
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1524
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:
I can imagine only cis women are allowed. Transgender, or at the very least, pre-surgery transgender women may be barred.

Nope, bad idea.


I'm sure they'll be allowed in as long as they spend most of their time inside being comic relief and helping the cis patrons feel better about themselves.
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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Well now this is interesting. Not something that seems new but decent nonetheless.
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