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Answerman - Can English-Speaking Fans Critique Japanese Voice Acting?


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crx07



Joined: 21 Sep 2015
Posts: 162
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:26 pm Reply with quote
I hope everybody can understand my English. What I will say here is purely an opinion and no real research is done to support my points so I could be wrong.

I would assume that emotions in voice are expressed through pitches and intonations. I would name it "intonational language". I would also assume that every non-tonal language has its own intonational language.

1. I think English and Japanese have major differences in intonational language. In this sense, we cannot compare and/or judge English and Japanese voice actors if we don't know either or both of their intonational languages. I think many would prefer English dubs over Japanese originals because they think Japanese originals have poor emotional expression because they fail to understand the Japanese intonational language and instead erroneously interpret those intonations and pitches using familiar English intonational language system which is not that compatible in understanding Japanese intonations.

Since I am more familiar with English than Japanese and French, it seems to me that English is better at expressing emotions. I also think the American and Filipino dialects is better than the British, Indian, or whatever dialects of English because, again, of the familiarity.

2. I think the Japanese intonational language itself is really much flatter than English. So I think the Japanese language would sound to be more emotionless. It could be because the Japanese intonational language seems to be very strict on changing the voice pitch and intonation. It hampers the growth of the intonational language. So, its strictness affects in developing the language to have more emotional nuances. So, we seem to hear the same intonations in different emotional situations, because nuances sound seemingly lacking, especially those who are not familiar with Japanese intonations. Whereas on American English, it seems to have more intonational freedom and therefore, has richer and more colorful intonational language. This could be the reason why Eldar said that "there's no genuine emotion in the performances of (Japanese) voice actors" We often tend to judge the emotion put by voice actors by measuring the strength and variation of the intonation, in which Japanese language seems to limit. It also seems to be true on French and Spanish.

3. Maybe the number of vowels in a language could affect the our judgment on "expressing emotion".

4. In the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPz3_hoG0lU, samples of Filipino dub on One Piece are "judged" by Japanese speakers. Luffy: 2:08-2:34, Nami: 2:41-2:56, Zoro: 2:58-3:15. Feel free to comment on the Filipino dub. Maybe we cannot really critique the voice acting of a non-tonal language dub because every va has . Maybe we can really critique the voice acting of a non-tonal language dub but only if the actor himself is obviously very bad.

My opinions could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:32 pm Reply with quote
Of course English-speaking fans can criticise Japanese voice acting. Have you heard Hideaki Anno in The Wind Rises? His performance was so atrocious I was forced to listen to most of that movie dubbed.

If you want good natural voice acting then listen to the Japanese dub of Only Yesterday. Don't have to speak the language to appreciate how good it is.

NearEasternerJ1 wrote:
Agreed. Most English speakers care too much about range. When you strip "range" out of Tara Strong, she is one of the worst voice actors ever. JYB is 10000X times better, despite being the anti-Strong, because his acting is on point.


JYB's naturally childish voice and lack of acting ability means he always sounds like a dweeb in everything he does. Case in point his performance of Lelouch in Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion, where he took a strong assertive character and made him into a whiny brat.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2173
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:15 pm Reply with quote
One thing that bothers me both ways, is when a character has one expression but the voice actor is doing something else. I always wonder who got it wrong: the animators or the audio team?

AwaysAnnoyed wrote:
And, let's consider for a moment the possibility that these stories they tell are taken in one cut, that would be even more impressive. Of course, clever sound engineering and editing makes it impossible to notice when one recording stops and a new cut begins, but even so, listening to one voice actor telling this story, and doing it with emotion, is truly a treat to my ear.


To give the actors even more credit, editing can't entirely fix it. There is an art to doing pickup lines and punch ins that many people don't get. If you abruptly start talking, it will sound like you abruptly started talking. If you naturally flow into it (by perhaps saying a few words before the break and after the break) then you will sound like you naturally flow into it.

It could be the engineer or director making someone aware of this or it could be the actor doing it because they know it leads to a better edit, either way, it's not really engineering and editing that would make it good. Someone (potentially the actor) is paying more attention to their craft than too many others do.
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Dtm, he fit the appearance perfectly. He fit better than Fukuyama, who sounded 35 years old. His voice was so bland for Lelouch. Jun is usually a very awesome VA, but he was bland as Lelouch.
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:21 pm Reply with quote
#844903 wrote:
I hope everybody can understand my English. What I will say here is purely an opinion and no real research is done to support my points so I could be wrong.

I would assume that emotions in voice are expressed through pitches and intonations. I would name it "intonational language". I would also assume that every non-tonal language has its own intonational language.

1. I think English and Japanese have major differences in intonational language. In this sense, we cannot compare and/or judge English and Japanese voice actors if we don't know either or both of their intonational languages. I think many would prefer English dubs over Japanese originals because they think Japanese originals have poor emotional expression because they fail to understand the Japanese intonational language and instead erroneously interpret those intonations and pitches using familiar English intonational language system which is not that compatible in understanding Japanese intonations.

Since I am more familiar with English than Japanese and French, it seems to me that English is better at expressing emotions. I also think the American and Filipino dialects is better than the British, Indian, or whatever dialects of English because, again, of the familiarity.

2. I think the Japanese intonational language itself is really much flatter than English. So I think the Japanese language would sound to be more emotionless. It could be because the Japanese intonational language seems to be very strict on changing the voice pitch and intonation. It hampers the growth of the intonational language. So, its strictness affects in developing the language to have more emotional nuances. So, we seem to hear the same intonations in different emotional situations, because nuances sound seemingly lacking, especially those who are not familiar with Japanese intonations. Whereas on American English, it seems to have more intonational freedom and therefore, has richer and more colorful intonational language. This could be the reason why Eldar said that "there's no genuine emotion in the performances of (Japanese) voice actors" We often tend to judge the emotion put by voice actors by measuring the strength and variation of the intonation, in which Japanese language seems to limit. It also seems to be true on French and Spanish.

3. Maybe the number of vowels in a language could affect the our judgment on "expressing emotion".

4. In the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPz3_hoG0lU, samples of Filipino dub on One Piece are "judged" by Japanese speakers. Luffy: 2:08-2:34, Nami: 2:41-2:56, Zoro: 2:58-3:15. Feel free to comment on the Filipino dub. Maybe we cannot really critique the voice acting of a non-tonal language dub because every va has . Maybe we can really critique the voice acting of a non-tonal language dub but only if the actor himself is obviously very bad.

My opinions could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.


I do agree on your first point somewhat, but I believe there is a lot to argue in the second and third one.

For starters, what we hear in anime, for the most part, is mainland, formal Japanese, and spoken in a way it's easy to hear and tell apart which words are being said, so they always speak a little louder. In the US, it is similarly done in cartoons, it is very uncommon for characters to talk super fast, or with a very soft tone, as opposed to movies or series aimed for older audiences.

There is one advantage for English language: everybody knows the accents. A language spoken on so many places allows for it to have plenty of different forms, especially within the United States themselves, all 50 states have a special speech of English, but all of them are easy to accept for the audience.

On the contrary, Japan's dialects are not only an awful lot, sometimes they sound like a complete different language. That is the same for Latin America, we all speak Spanish, but the dubs are VERY cautious on not falling for any of the accents or use certain words, very few are allowed (like the equivalents of "dude" "man" and such). Whenever an accent is touched upon in anime, it's sort of a big deal in a character and those around him, like people not understanding them or being surprised of it, or the character being embarassed or pride of it (almost all Kansai speaking characters show assertive attitude and clearly just don't care), but thanks to subs we can experience those few anime that regularly use accents as normal part of speech, like Chiahayafuru uses Fukui accent, Hokkaido accent, traditional Japanese, and common mainland, academic Japanese. I think there is a team that speaks with Osaka dialect, but I do not remember.

Japanese is not a flatter language in intonation, but it needs to restrict itself for anime, much like Latin American Spanish. There is in fact a lot of debate whether the actor should use their accents, and is in fact a big deal when criticizing Spanish from Spain, people tend to not tolerate (this is no joke) the accent they put in every dialogue.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:34 pm Reply with quote
MajorZero wrote:
]That very well may be, but this is hardly a pinnacle of voice acting by any stretch of imagination. My take is that fans wanted an authenticity which simply couldn't be delivered through dub, I mean, British accents alone are impossible to replicate in Japanese. The same way Japanese period pieces will be authentical only in Japanese, regardless of how good dub actually is.


That sounds like Japanese actors attempting to do the more subdued American voice acting but not really understanding it. I'd imagine to a Japanese listener, some English anime dubs must sound like that too.

I heard these games don't have their original English audio in their Japanese releases. Quite the bummer.

Valhern wrote:
For starters, what we hear in anime, for the most part, is mainland, formal Japanese, and spoken in a way it's easy to hear and tell apart which words are being said, so they always speak a little louder. In the US, it is similarly done in cartoons, it is very uncommon for characters to talk super fast, or with a very soft tone, as opposed to movies or series aimed for older audiences.

There is one advantage for English language: everybody knows the accents. A language spoken on so many places allows for it to have plenty of different forms, especially within the United States themselves, all 50 states have a special speech of English, but all of them are easy to accept for the audience.


I remember one of my foreign language teachers said when I was in high school that some languages can appear to sound fast when spoken because they don't have a brief pause between words the way languages like English, French, and German do. Spanish is one of those languages, and for someone like me, who doesn't know the language well, conversational Spanish sounds breakneck.

As for different versions of English, some states have multiple accents and dialects. New York City alone has several, each of the largest boroughs having its own (hence the specificity when talking about a "Brooklyn accent" or a "Harlem accent").
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Errinundra
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Joined: 14 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Valhern wrote:
...There is one advantage for English language: everybody knows the accents. A language spoken on so many places allows for it to have plenty of different forms, especially within the United States themselves, all 50 states have a special speech of English, but all of them are easy to accept for the audience...


Funnily enough, that's probably the major reason why I prefer subs. As an Australian I often find the American accents inappropriate in Japaneses stories (as most anime have). Some voice actors have a mid-Atlantic neutral accent that's acceptable but when a samurai bursts into an American drawl it's really weird to my ear.
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stilldemented



Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 232
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:10 pm Reply with quote
When I have to watch a show subbed, I don't pay attention to the actor's performance. I'm more interested in following the story. The actor or actress speaking just becomes a background noise to indicate who is talking and when.

When I watch a show dubbed, I no longer have to focus on the story since I can understand what is being said. That frees me up to focus more on the actor's portrayal of the character.

Since I pay attention to dubs more often than not. What I will say is that they tend to hit the ground running with a performance. That is to say, it will start out semi-shaky and evens out somewhere in the middle of the show. Usually, by the time the actor gets their feet planted for a character, the dub is done and ready for release. Be weary about judging a dub by its first episode. That's usually where a dub's performance will be shakiest.

That's all I got on this.
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scriver058



Joined: 21 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:31 pm Reply with quote
I've been waiting for this article all of my anime life. Finally something to throw in the face of all these "subs are unquestionably better than dubs!" people.
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:17 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Valhern wrote:
For starters, what we hear in anime, for the most part, is mainland, formal Japanese, and spoken in a way it's easy to hear and tell apart which words are being said, so they always speak a little louder. In the US, it is similarly done in cartoons, it is very uncommon for characters to talk super fast, or with a very soft tone, as opposed to movies or series aimed for older audiences.

There is one advantage for English language: everybody knows the accents. A language spoken on so many places allows for it to have plenty of different forms, especially within the United States themselves, all 50 states have a special speech of English, but all of them are easy to accept for the audience.


I remember one of my foreign language teachers said when I was in high school that some languages can appear to sound fast when spoken because they don't have a brief pause between words the way languages like English, French, and German do. Spanish is one of those languages, and for someone like me, who doesn't know the language well, conversational Spanish sounds breakneck.

As for different versions of English, some states have multiple accents and dialects. New York City alone has several, each of the largest boroughs having its own (hence the specificity when talking about a "Brooklyn accent" or a "Harlem accent").


Yep, that's sometimes the problems we have with dubs from English and Japanese here, mostly because our sentences are made backwards, like, we don't say "Blue sea", we say "Sea blue", and some other cases in which the dialogue is cut off for suspense or has brief pauses for better fluidity, it basically breaks our speech and if not directed well, it can sound very wonky.

We too have multiple accents in specific areas of each country, as far as I can count, in my country only we have around 6 or 7.
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CoreSignal



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:29 pm Reply with quote
I'm pretty much of the opinion that you should be able watch (hear) anime however you want. Although I'm mostly a sub guy I wouldn't say that Japanese VA is always better, as many English dubs (especially nowadays) are pretty good. And of course, you have the rare example of an English dub being regarded as superior, like for Cowboy Bebop.

@crosswithyou, I prefer the term "naturalistic" acting to "realistic" acting. In the majority of anime shows, a voice actor is playing a role of character, and by nature, I think the acting has to be unrealistic or unnatural because they're portraying someone other than themselves. For me, a realistic or natural performance would be someone acting in their natural or speaking voice. It's funny that you bring up a monogatari show. I've only seen Bakemonogatari, so I obviously can't comment on Kizumonogatari, but I personally find the voice acting in Bakemonogatari to be very stilted. Every conversation in that show felt like two characters reading off long monologues at each other as opposed to having an acutal conversation. But maybe that's just me.

Two recent examples of realistic/natural acting for me would be Flowers of Evil and Ping Pong. The voice acting in both shows sounds very natural. In Flowers of Evil especially, I imagine the intonation and conversation flow are pretty much how typical Japanese teenagers talk. I don't think naturalistic acting is automatically better than "unrealistic" acting or vice versa. It really depends on the type of show.


#844903 wrote:
2. I think the Japanese intonational language itself is really much flatter than English. So I think the Japanese language would sound to be more emotionless. It could be because the Japanese intonational language seems to be very strict on changing the voice pitch and intonation. It hampers the growth of the intonational language.


While I'm no phonologist or Japanese expert, I have a background in linguistics and it's to my understanding that Japanese doesn't have varying stress on individual sounds like in English. Japanese essentially places equal stress on all the sounds or words in a sentence, which is why Japanese can sound monotone to an English speaker. However, in no way does that imply that Japanese is a less "emotional" language than English, as shown in plenty of great Japanese VA performances. I'd argue that much emotional intonation is universal. For example, raising your voice in anger, using a rising intonation for uncertainty, or speaking quickly to show nervousness.


stilldemented wrote:
When I have to watch a show subbed, I don't pay attention to the actor's performance. I'm more interested in following the story. The actor or actress speaking just becomes a background noise to indicate who is talking and when.


This is a really good point. This happens to me a lot, too. In fact, this might be why I find the VA performances in Bakemonogatari to be very stiff. Since the dialogue is so dense after a couple minutes I start to tune out the voices and just read the text, so it feels like I'm listening to a lecture in the background or something. The same thing happened to me with Tatami Galaxy, although that had more to do with the speed than the performance.
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Nazca Lily #837256



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:42 pm Reply with quote
I'm not really picky about sub or dub is better. Some times I like the dub or the dub can up stand against the original language (Psycho-Pass, UN-GO, Paprika). It usually depends on my mood which language I will listen to while watching the show or movie. Though when it comes to live action foreign movies - I prefer the native language (House of Flying Daggers & Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - the dubs for those were hideous).

I have not considered Japanese to be too difficult to understand the nuances of emotion. Sentence structure sure. Maybe it is cause I grew up hearing Korean, which I've lost a great deal of understanding except when mom starts talking in a certain tone... Also took Spanish and German in middle and high school, but am no means proficient in any way.

When I was an elementary school kid, I'd visit relatives in Korea and we would watch some American tv shows (A-Team, MacGuyver, MASH) that were dubbed in Korean. I don't recall the speech-pacing, the only thing that I can recall is that I'd be saying MacGuyver doesn't sound like that or the crazy dude sounds really bizarre. I still watched the shows because I could understand what was happening. I thought the voices were funny too. I'd also seen Sailor Moon and Ranma1/2 dubbed in Korean - I had no clue what was happening in Ranma1/2, but Sailor Moon was easy to figure out.

Sorry if this is a little off tangent.
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crosswithyou



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:55 pm Reply with quote
CoreSignal wrote:
@crosswithyou, I prefer the term "naturalistic" acting to "realistic" acting. In the majority of anime shows, a voice actor is playing a role of character, and by nature, I think the acting has to be unrealistic or unnatural because they're portraying someone other than themselves. For me, a realistic or natural performance would be someone acting in their natural or speaking voice. It's funny that you bring up a monogatari show. I've only seen Bakemonogatari, so I obviously can't comment on Kizumonogatari, but I personally find the voice acting in Bakemonogatari to be very stilted. Every conversation in that show felt like two characters reading off long monologues at each other as opposed to having an acutal conversation. But maybe that's just me.

I was just repeating the language that was used in the article. I would think a "natural" performance would mean that the acting does not seem out of place and flows within the world it is set though, so I'm not sure I agree with your definition. One performance off the top of my head that would fit your specific definition of a "natural performance" however would be Neeko in Hitman Reborn. Her speaking voice really does sound like Reborn, as cartoonish as it may be.

As for Bakemonogatari, that's because the script does contain long monologue-like conversations. I'm inclined to say that it sounds like that because that's what the director wanted, and is not due to any lack of skill on the actors' part. Take the arguably most well-known scene near the end of the series where Araragi and Senjougahara confess to each other, for example. Can you honestly say that this conversation was like all others in the previous episodes? There was so much emotion despite it being a relatively quiet scene with the two just gazing at the stars and each other. That's what the director called for and the seiyuu delivered.

As I mentioned, the first 5 or so minutes of Kizumonogatari is all Araragi's heavy breathing as he runs in fear. Then that scream as he bursts into flames... Anyone who isn't absolutely floored by that performance has got to be crazy.
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MajorZero



Joined: 29 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:22 am Reply with quote
crosswithyou wrote:
I was just repeating the language that was used in the article. I would think a "natural" performance would mean that the acting does not seem out of place and flows within the world it is set though, so I'm not sure I agree with your definition.

"Naturalistic" performance just mean performance that as close to real life as possible. Directors torturing actors with dozens of takes to be sure that they're not overacting. Over the top nature of show/film doesn't automatically makes over the top performance in it "realistic", "naturalistic" or even "good" by conventional acting standards. Think of it, how many awards were given to people who played over the top, larger than life characters in equally over the top shows or movies? Jim Carrey hasn't been considered as serious actor before he played in The Truman Show, the role which significantly restrained his on screen persona. Stanislavski's system as a whole dedicated to techniques that give actors an opportunity to create believable characters.

Actually, I think this raises another question: should we judge anime voice acting by merits of more conventional forms of acting?
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:55 am Reply with quote
Well, in Japan, this sort of loud, exaggerated style of acting WOULD be a conventional form of acting, derived from stage performances, where actors HAVE to be loud to be heard and exaggerated to be understood.
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