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Languages for Alternative Titles in Non-Native Languages




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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:23 am Reply with quote
So, specifically, I'm referring to the 5 Weiß Kreuz titles: TV 1, OAV, TV 2, Manga 1, and Manga 2.

For all 3, Weiß Kreuz (or Weiss Kreuz, for the OAV) is listed as the "German" title, and ヴァイスクロイツ is listed as the "Japanese" title. While, yes, this is theoretically correct, it's not accurate. The Japanese title of the series is Weiß Kreuz. The Katakana title is rendered ヴァイスクロイツ.

So, what my question is, how should alternative titles that are not in the native language for that version be listed? In this case, the Japanese title is in German. Should it be listed as Japanese or German?

For Weiß, ideally, the entries should be entered as follows:

Knight Hunters (TV)
Weiß Kreuz (Japanese)
ヴァイスクロイツ (Japanese)
White Cross (Japanese translated)
[any other titles from other languages]

Weiß Kreuz - Verbrechen /Strafe (OAV)
ヴァイスクロイツ verbrechen / strafe (Japanese)
White Cross - Crime / Punishment (Japanese translated)
[any other titles from other languages]

Knight Hunters: Eternity (TV), and
Weiß Kreuz Glühen (Japanese)
ヴァイスクロイツ グリーエン (Japanese)
White Cross Glowing (Japanese translated)
[any other titles from other languages]

Weiß - An Assassin and White Shaman
ヴァイス-AN ASSASSIN AND WHITE SHAMAN (Japanese)
White - An Assassin and White Shaman (Japanese translated)
[any other titles from other languages]

Weiß side B
ヴァイス sideB (Japanese)
White side B (Japanese translated)
[any other titles from other languages]

(all Japanese titles are copied directly from Wikipedia.jp)
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:35 pm Reply with quote
First to add, all the "Japanese Translated" titles shouldn't be listed at all. I think we have it on the record that "fan-translated" titles shouldn't be included.

I think, regardless of the fact that the title is German, titles should be attributed to where they are localized at. For instance Weiss Kruez is the Japanese title because it is the title used in Japan despite the fact that the title is in German. That's my 2 cents.
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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Location: Springfield, MO
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:44 am Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:
First to add, all the "Japanese Translated" titles shouldn't be listed at all. I think we have it on the record that "fan-translated" titles shouldn't be included.

Yeah, a translated title should only be entered if it is in official use somewhere. Also, for titles that are romanized originally (unlike Weiß Kreuz where the original title is in katakana), unofficial furigana should not be entered either (for instance "ショウ・バイ・ロック" would not be a valid alternate title for Show By Rock!!)

octopodpie wrote:
I think, regardless of the fact that the title is German, titles should be attributed to where they are localized at. For instance Weiss Kruez is the Japanese title because it is the title used in Japan despite the fact that the title is in German. That's my 2 cents.

That's contrary to point #4 on the submission page for titles ("Language" is the language of the title, not the anime/manga.) and the examples given there. Don't have a strong opinion either way, but IMO it would not be a worthwhile effort to go back and change everything that's already entered.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:52 pm Reply with quote
What would we do in a case where the German or French release of an anime that has an assigned German/French title in Japan doesn't choose to use that title, then?

Or, for instance, I recently came across a case for a manga where the French release gave it an alternate English title and released it under that.

Basically there are "English title used in Japan" cases (like Bombshells From the Sky vs Cat Planet Cuties). I'm not suggesting we undergo a massive undertaking of reattributing titles, but I think going forward it's less complicated to use country of origin.
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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Location: Springfield, MO
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:06 pm Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:

Basically there are "English title used in Japan" cases (like Bombshells From the Sky vs Cat Planet Cuties).

I was under the impression "Bombshells from the Sky" was a Crunchyroll thing (from when it was simulcast and before FUNi licensed it for home video). Was it used in Japan?

Still, it seems like this would be more complicated. Say, for example, we have "Spice and Wolf". The anime was given that English subtitle in Japan before FUNimation licensed it. Would that title be entered as a "Japanese" title at first and then changed to "English" after it's licensed?

It's not unusual for the licensor to decide on a different title after already using one translated variant. For instance, Love, Chunibyo & Other Delusions! was initially known as "Regardless of My Adolescent Delusions of Grandeur, I Want a Date!" on the TBS international sales sites, and that form was used rather briefly even on The Anime Network's page early on in the simulcast. I don't see any problem with multiple titles for the same language: they're still valid (used officially once) titles even if one has been superseded or used in different regions. I'm not sure if there's too much of an issue of claiming that French-released English title is an "English" title, as long as it's properly sourced so we can tell where it comes from.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The anime was given that English subtitle in Japan before FUNimation licensed it. Would that title be entered as a "Japanese" title at first and then changed to "English" after it's licensed?


This is my thought, yes.

Quote:
I'm not sure if there's too much of an issue of claiming that French-released English title is an "English" title, as long as it's properly sourced so we can tell where it comes from.


That's the problem really. Most visitors searching the Encyclopedia are simply going to see the title with (English) after and think it is the title used in English-speaking countries. Only for it turn up the series in French (or not at all).

Ultimately, I think the goal should be ease of usability, and expecting visitors to check the source toggle on titles to make sure it's really the one they want is a bit much. I do think there would be some initial "This says it's the Japanese title but it's in English" comments, though.
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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:35 pm Reply with quote
Here's my $0.02:

Most anime fans are used to random English/Engrish titles. Most people used to the encyclopedia are used to "'Official' title is the Japanese title if unlicensed, the English title if licensed." So I'm not sure fan confusion is that much of an issue.

For titles, they should be noted as the country using the title, not the language the title is in (so, Weiss is Japanese, not German, etc). For cases where there is an "international" title that is official, but not used for the English release, perhaps it should be listed as "International" as the precision?

For non-Japanese/non-English/non-International titles, as a fan, I'd likely assume that if nothing is listed as a title for my language, either a) it's not available in my language, or b) the title for my language is one of those three. I don't think it's that confusing.


So I'd see it listed something like this (assuming a licensed show with a different English and International title):
Main Title
Alternate Titles:
[English-language title used by Japanese licensor] (International)
[Romaji version of Japanese title] (Japanese)
[Kanji/Katakana version of Japanese title] (Japanese)
[any other official titles in other languages] ([whatever language it is for])
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3780
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:38 am Reply with quote
No.

"Japanese" can mean two things
1) a spoken/written language
2) an adjective describing a country

The instructions for alternative titles haven't changed that much in the last 14 years, and they clearly state that by "language" we mean #1. I don't want to suddenly change the rules and turn it into #2. The confusion would be horrible.

I agree we need to have a way to attach a title to a particular version, but changing the definition of "language" is not the way to go. Basically this is something that will have to wait until Encyc 2.0
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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:32 pm Reply with quote
I don't know about anyone else, but I've always taken "language" in the Encyclopedia to mean "language this version of the show is in". So the "Japanese" cast/crew/title is "cast/crew/title for the Japanese version". "English" is "cast/crew/title for the English version." "Weiss Kreuz" being listed as the "German" title, I'm reading as "title for the German version", not that the title is in German for the Japanese version.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:14 am Reply with quote
I agree with Dessa that most users are going to assume the same. The "definition" that's being used in this case isn't immediately obvious nor is it something a reader would know unless they decided to submit an alternate title and then read the submission guidelines.

I think that's something that's being assumed far too often, that users of the Encyclopedia are familiar with submission guidelines and context when really only those of us who are regularly contributing to the Encyclopedia are aware of it. I know that the English title really only means "these are English words but might not but used in North America, Britain, or Australia and is actually only found on Japanese DVD discs" because I've been contributing to the Encyclopedia for over five years.

I'm also wondering how simply identifying what language something is IN but not where it is used is helpful to users. I can look at Spanish, French, German, and Italian words and recognize them as such and I assume most other people can as well. If that's all that designation after the title is supposed to do then I don't think it's as useful as it could be.

Anyone else who is types in "Denpa Kyōshi" and sees "He Is an Ultimate Teacher" would probably be confused why they can't find that title anywhere on official English streaming sites.
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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:52 am Reply with quote
Speaking strictly as a person who uses the encyclopedia for reference I will say that I would expect the language that is listed after an alternate title to be the language that is used in the anime, either dubbed or subtitled, when the anime has that alternate title.
If the language is Spanish then I would expect the anime with that title to be accessible to a person whose primary language is Spanish.

This is not an issue that affects me personally because what I care about is the title that is used in the US, and that is not going to be an alternate title.

It does seem to me that knowing the language used in the anime is more useful than knowing the language of the words in the title, if those are different. But other than saying that I am not going to get involved in a discussion of how things should be done.
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