Forum - View topicShould animators get a living wage in Japan?
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NearEasternerJ1
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Although from North America, I am interested in Northern European politics. Japan seems to be a mid wage country, despite that fact it is a very expensive nation to live in.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-around-the-world-2015-5?r=US&IR=T https://www.clements.com/resources/articles/The-10-Most-Expensive-Countries-for-Expats We've heard that wages for animators are almost slave labor. Would it be beneficial for Japan to have a higher unionized force with a 3000 yen per hour wage in Tokyo and 2000-2500 yen elsewhere? Higher wages equal higher productivity and a higher quality of life. That is an economic fact. If it works in Switzerland and the Nordic nations, why not Japan? |
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Saffire
 Posts: 1255 Location: Iowa, USA |
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I don't think there's too much dissent that Japan's animation industry is built on insane economics. The problem is there's no obvious path to fix it. If you're going to increase wages, the money has to come from somewhere, and right now there just isn't that much money in the industry.
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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It's a courtesy here that the author of the OP of a thread provide their own opinions on the questions they raise. |
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NearEasternerJ1
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Sorry about that. Yes, I do believe that the Japanese animators and workers should get a living wage. I don't believe in border slave labor in any circumstance. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9841 Location: Virginia |
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Where do I start??
Yes, as a matter of theory, I feel that anyone working fulltime should be paid a living wage. However .... First it is not "slave labor" borderline or otherwise. Animators are not working in the industry involuntarily. Even with Japan's economic problems there is no indication people are taking jobs as animators as an alternative to starving to death. People go into animation for the same reason they make sacrifices to become actors or musicians. They see it as a first step to a field of employment they see as desirable. Many, if not most are mistaken in this but hope springs eternal. Your links in the initial post do not apply to the situation. According to the information provided here, animators are not paid an hourly wage, they are paid by the piece and are not even "employees" as such. The reference to the cost of living for expatriates is inappropriate. No matter the country, natives live a different, cheaper, lifestyle than outsiders. They are not comparable. In a sense, it is a living wage since animators are manifestly, living on it. Given the reports of the number of hours worked by the average animator, they certainly are not getting second jobs to make ends meet, yet they are not starving to death or living in cardboard boxes in the nearest park. Is it a lifestyle you or I would like? No, of course not, but it is one they chose and can quit anytime. In addition, to expand on what Saffire said above, be careful what you ask for. To begin with, the industry will not change voluntarily. It would require the government passing a law mandating an adequate minimum wage for animators (and presumably others in similar situations). This is the same government everyone is screaming about censoring anime and manga. Do we really want them to be that involved in the production process? Note that the first thing the studios would do is restructure the job to avoid the new law. Likely this would involve the animators working off site in even worse conditions than now. Pass a law to prevent this and they would likely outsource all the animation jobs to other countries instead of just part of it like now. Essentially all the people you are trying to help would be out of work. There would probably be a decrease in animation quality for awhile as well. The alternative to outsourcing would likely be a lot of studios going out of business. Perhaps this would not be a bad thing since we are currently drowning in new anime each season. Unfortunately, less anime would not mean that only the good stuff would be created. You would get the same mix of good, bad and really ugly, just less of it. The remaining studios would likely concentrate on the safe, surefire otaku bait. Of course, any discussion here of working conditions in Japan is rather pointless. Nothing said or done in this country is going to have any effect on the Japanese animation industry. This discussion is basically wheel spinning, nothing more. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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I completely concur. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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This is an incredibly reductive position that is in no way based on what "living wage" actually means. The idea of a living wage is rooted in the idea that there are minimal acceptable standards of living that should be afforded to all workers and that those standards go well beyond the literal minimum of not dying. What exactly that standard is is a matter of some debate. The ability to work a reasonable number of hours, live a healthy life both in terms of nutrition and healthcare, and have at least some time and money for recreation are all within the ballpark though. By this standard, animators in Japan really don't make a living wage in a lot of cases.
This is another incredibly reductive argument. Firstly, your suggestion that change can only be achieved through government intervention is dubious. There's a huge push in Japan already for better treatment of animators and it has already seen some marginal results. Granted, I doubt anything will massively change overnight. But major change can be achieved over time if people demand it rather than passively accept the status quo. Also, even if that was the case though, invoking government censorship as if it has any bearing on government mandated minimum wage laws is about as transparent a scare tactic as it gets. The one has nothing to do with the other. It's perfectly consistent to hold that the government should mandate companies treat their employees with a basic level of decency while also holding that the government should not dictate what content is and isn't allowed to exist.
This is an argument I'm always a little wary of simply because it's the exact same argument that the rich have been making for decades to justify businesses treating their employees like dirt. That said, this may be one case where it is actually valid. The anime industry in Japan, at least as we know it, has long been held together by a sort of collective economic insanity. By all rights it doesn't make any sense. The cost of production is simply way out of line with the actual demand. The only reason so much anime gets produced is because a small group of fans are willing to pay exorbitant prices for it and because animators are willing to work ridiculous hours for terrible pay to produce it. If you take that away...well yeah. It would probably have massive repercussions for the industry. Honestly though, that might not be a bad thing. As you yourself said, the vast majority of animators aren't necessarily in it because this is the only thing they can do. That being the case, you might actually be doing them a favor. Sure, a lot of them might find themselves out of work. But if they were forced to face the reality that they were never going to make it in the anime industry they could at least move on to another line of work that would actually be way better for them in the long run. And those that remained would finally be able to build a decent life while working as animators. Like I said, there is validity to this part of your post. One should absolutely beware of the downsides here. There's be nothing clean or easy about a major reduction in the anime industry. There's a point though where a pruned plant is far healthier than the alternative.
Again, this is a valid concern. I would argue that long term this might actually result in an industry that finally moves past this niche, creatively stunting bubble it has become trapped in. That may just be wishful thinking though. Of course, at the end of the day, I don't think this is a particularly important point. If we're weighing our own personal enjoyment of cartoons against the lives and well-being of the people who create them, it should be a no-brainer to say the latter is vastly more important.
And? This is an internet forum about anime. Literally everything we do here is "wheel spinning". It serves no useful purpose and will affect nothing. People seem to only bring this up selectively though when they really want to shut down a discussion. |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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^
Hmm, I must confess that that you might have a point here..... |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9841 Location: Virginia |
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ikillchicken wrote:
I'll address your last comment first. If I was trying to shut down the discussion I would have saved myself the effort of composing all but the last paragraph. What I was trying to do was pull some of the heat out of the discussion, to shed light on what we were actually doing. Too many of these discussions evoke great passion over very futile issues. I will admit to a certain amount of fatigue with people coming to the ANN forums and laying out just exactly what the Japanese anime industry must do. As if the animation industry was a single hive mind and not dozens if not hundreds of businesses small and large trying to make a buck and, if possible, create something they can be proud of.
I was being a bit facetious there. However, using the term living wage to address animators is inappropriate. This is not a career, it is not a job taken to make a living. This is an attempt to break into the entertainment industry. It at least gives the impression that they have their foot in the door and are doing something they want to. Any number of people in this country living in as bad conditions trying to be actors or musicians do not have that. This is an entry type position. You don't stay there. You either move up or get/burn out. That is why they are always recruiting.
Given that this involves, as I said, many small studios, the only way to provide better conditions in general would be by outside pressure, most likely government. I would applaud any studio that did in fact provide adequate wages and conditions to all their animators. but they would have to show that they can do that and be successful. When a studio is looking for work, what they have to offer the production committee is their reputation for quality, their reputation for reliability (timeliness) and their cost. A dedicated staff would likely improve quality and reliability but would drive up costs. I would suggest that looking at what we get each season, some production committees value cost over other factors.
In theory certainly this is true. However, we are not talking about government in the abstract, we are discussing the Japanese government (or the Tokyo government since that is where most studios are located). I have yet to see any indication that they are concerned with working conditions in the anime (or idol) industry but several reports regarding possible censorship. I seriously do not think they should be invited to involve themselves in the workings of the anime industry.
I agree that neither Mac Donalds or Walmart is going out of business just because of a hike in the minimum wage. However, a certain portion of anime production is already outsourced. It is not unlikely that more would be if in country costs were substantially increased. Also, I really doubt that would be animators would appreciate the "favor" of being denied even a chance to break into the industry.
And yet if you prune too far the plant dies. I have no doubt that the industry is due for serious change. The current status is too unstable to last indefinitely. It is likely that streaming or international money may be the catalyst. However, I think the change must come from within due to normal reactions to changing circumstances. Any outside attempts to reform the industry are more likely to kill it, especially because it is unstable. Bottom line, it would be really nice if animators had decent pay and living conditions. The problem is that even if we had the power to make that change (and we don't) how do we accomplish that without killing what we love. |
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Saffire
Posts: 1255 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9841 Location: Virginia |
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@Saffire
Do the schools teach only entry level drawing skills, or do they teach the entire process of animation including the multiple specialties within the industry? I really doubt that anyone goes to school with the intent of doing inbetween animation for the next forty years. I may be wrong. I'm only seeing the industry through the information provided here. However, my impression is that the "animators" we are talking about who are treated rather badly are only those at the lower levels of the industry. I'm not suggesting that they don't deserve to be treated and paid appropriately. What I want to hear is real life suggestions as to how this can be done without killing the industry. Feel good statements that "I support better pay for animators" achieve nothing. I think I would be more supportive if I thought that the studios responsible for these working conditions were getting rich in the process. That would mean there was more money available to pay people. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. If anyone is making money off of anime it would seem to be select members of the production committees who are at a couple of levels disconnected from the working stiffs. The main thing is that this is work people go into because they want to. The studios couldn't get away with it if they didn't. I suspect most of these people could make more money and live better as a clerk in a convenience store or behind the counter at Mg Ronalds. In a way, I'm envious, I have never had anything in my life I wanted to do that much. |
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