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INTEREST: Prime Minister Abe: Dōjinshi Safe Under TPP


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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 569
Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:12 am Reply with quote
Seriously guys, give me a break:

1 - The fansubbers make money from ads and donations to manage themselves. Point one.

2 - Point two: The great popularization of aniime these last years comes from fansubbing.

3 - Believe it or not, regional restrictions exist which furter helps the existence of fansubbing.

4 - No profit (in most cases) is made in fansubbing. Only anime sharing.

5 - Without fansubbing, some anime would be rare or, in more extreme cases, lost. Some already is. When was the last time anybody heard of a Seraphim Call stream or box-set?

6 - Can the company really lose money if most people making use of these things didn't have the money in the first place? That fact that most fansub downloads were made by people with restricted anime access or file-hoarders was even mentioned on Answerman, for Christ's sake. It was also mentioned that illegal streaming sites were the real damage to the industry rather than fansubbing sites. And the countries without legal anime viewership? Someone please explain any of this to me.

I am happy to see more companies interested in the anime market, But as long as these problems prevail, fansubbers have to stay.
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marvel knight



Joined: 23 Jul 2013
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:36 am Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:
Seriously guys, give me a break:

1 - The fansubbers make money from ads and donations to manage themselves. Point one.

2 - Point two: The great popularization of aniime these last years comes from fansubbing.

3 - Believe it or not, regional restrictions exist which furter helps the existence of fansubbing.

4 - No profit (in most cases) is made in fansubbing. Only anime sharing.

5 - Without fansubbing, some anime would be rare or, in more extreme cases, lost. Some already is. When was the last time anybody heard of a Seraphim Call stream or box-set?

6 - Can the company really lose money if most people making use of these things didn't have the money in the first place? That fact that most fansub downloads were made by people with restricted anime access or file-hoarders was even mentioned on Answerman, for Christ's sake. It was also mentioned that illegal streaming sites were the real damage to the industry rather than fansubbing sites. And the countries without legal anime viewership? Someone please explain any of this to me.

I am happy to see more companies interested in the anime market, But as long as these problems prevail, fansubbers have to stay.


I agree with you 100% It's telling when I brought up some of these same points in one of the Answerman comments, only to not be acknowledged at all.
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AnimeLordLuis



Joined: 27 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:53 am Reply with quote
Well that's very reassuring hopefully this also means that illegal sites become much less profitable and start to shut down. Confused
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Brutannica



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 241
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:13 am Reply with quote
Lemonchest wrote:
Wasn't one of the biggest concerns not that the TPP could make all fan-art illegal (the bigger doujin vendors at Comicat etc would likely be found to be breaking those provisions Abe mentions if taken to court) but that it would make it so someone other than the original rights holder could start legal proceedings against an alleged copyright infringer? This doesn't address that, or anything really.


On the contrary, the article states that doujinshi will be considered shinkokuzai (which means they cannot be sued by someone other than the copyright holder).
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revolutionotaku



Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 818
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:15 am Reply with quote
What about anime music videos (AMV)?
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Alabaster Spectrum



Joined: 02 Sep 2015
Posts: 528
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:24 pm Reply with quote
I still think this guy is a terrible politician with terrible policies and can only hope he ends up out of office soon.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5178
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:33 pm Reply with quote
It is all a matter of interpretation. Personally, I think the Prime Minister is only playing to the audience. If the winds change, you'll find the Japanese government's interpretation of TPP changing also.
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SWAnimefan



Joined: 10 Oct 2014
Posts: 634
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:
5 - Without fansubbing, some anime would be rare or, in more extreme cases, lost. Some already is. When was the last time anybody heard of a Seraphim Call stream or box-set?

6 - Can the company really lose money if most people making use of these things didn't have the money in the first place? That fact that most fansub downloads were made by people with restricted anime access or file-hoarders was even mentioned on Answerman, for Christ's sake. It was also mentioned that illegal streaming sites were the real damage to the industry rather than fansubbing sites. And the countries without legal anime viewership? Someone please explain any of this to me.

I am happy to see more companies interested in the anime market, But as long as these problems prevail, fansubbers have to stay.


Your points are very much valid.

While I'm happy that companies are now making legal hosting sites for manga and anime more available, #5 still bothers me to a degree. Because it's very much true. While illegal / pirate sites can take away some potential sales, they also keep older titles around for people to watch and actually encourage sales of titles long out of print.

For instance, Macross. Here in America, we wouldn't know about Macross 7, Frontier, or the new Delta. Or all those lesser-known anime that never even get a chance to be licensed overseas. Which is a shame.

So it would be nice if these companies made their older titles available and legally downloadable from their own sites. (They also save money not having to make CDs). Along with their soundtracks. So it's win-win for them.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:13 pm Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:


2 - Point two: The great popularization of aniime these last years comes from fansubbing.
What "fansubbing"? Other than little-girls' shows like Jewelpet and Precure, or the occasional title like Amagi Brilliant Park that falls through the cracks, no current/seasonal anime gets "fansubbed" under the traditional sense of the word -- it's all direct rips of official streams or edits of official streaming subs by former fansubbing groups, which either get downloaded by end viewers or re-encoded by bootleg streaming sites.

Quote:
3 - Believe it or not, regional restrictions exist which further helps the existence of fansubbing.
Yet current "fansubbing" is done by the same entities and in the same languages/dialects as before. If fansubbing were flourishing more in underserved regions and countries, we'd see more subbing activity in other languages or English dialects, but we still see demands that English-language groups simplify their subs for international/non-native viewers, or demands from region-locked UK/AU/NZ English speakers for US-based groups to make their subs less "American." And plenty of people in regions where legal, unrestricted streams are available continue to consume "fansubs," either because they don't want to deal with ads/subscription costs, or because they feel the official presentations are lacking.

Quote:
5 - Without fansubbing, some anime would be rare or, in more extreme cases, lost. Some already is. When was the last time anybody heard of a Seraphim Call stream or box-set?
You mean the 1999 anime whose December 2004 boxed set release is still easily available for less than MSRP? Clearly, it never was in-demand enough to run the risk of becoming rare. Plus, the only downloadable version of Seraphim Call is a rip of those same Media-Blasters R1 DVDs -- in other words, not a fansub at all!

SWAnimefan wrote:
While illegal / pirate sites can take away some potential sales, they also keep older titles around for people to watch and actually encourage sales of titles long out of print.
I'm sympathetic to the goal of keeping older titles relevant in the fandom, but sales of out-of-print titles generally come from secondary re-sellers (which is legal, but proceeds don't go to publishers) -- after all, a title that's still being sold by publishers is otherwise known as... an in-print title, right? And from a publisher's standpoint, viewer attention paid to OOP/unavailable titles is mindshare and money that's being diverted away from current releases that have more of an impact on their cashflow and financial health.


Last edited by Zalis116 on Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:07 pm Reply with quote
I wouldn't take Mr. Abe's word for it. With all of those ambiguous provisions the TPP contains, the government can use them to their advantage to do what they will without repudiation...including outlawing doujinshi.
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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 569
Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:21 am Reply with quote
marvel knight wrote:


I agree with you 100% It's telling when I brought up some of these same points in one of the Answerman comments, only to not be acknowledged at all.


SWAnimefan wrote:


Your points are very much valid.

While I'm happy that companies are now making legal hosting sites for manga and anime more available, #5 still bothers me to a degree. Because it's very much true. While illegal / pirate sites can take away some potential sales, they also keep older titles around for people to watch and actually encourage sales of titles long out of print.

For instance, Macross. Here in America, we wouldn't know about Macross 7, Frontier, or the new Delta. Or all those lesser-known anime that never even get a chance to be licensed overseas. Which is a shame.

So it would be nice if these companies made their older titles available and legally downloadable from their own sites. (They also save money not having to make CDs). Along with their soundtracks. So it's win-win for them.


First off, thank you both for the support. It can get quite hectic and ad hominem-prone when this discussion is ever brought up, with the accusations of supporting the leeching of/leeching the anime world. So all support or at least recognition of points is appreciated.

Indeed, the major problem in this discussion is that many (not all) of those on the other side don't acknowledge existing factors, like poverty, region-locking, oppressive regimes, constant internet shutdowns due to delayed bills (thus the file-hoarding), or the expansion of anime's popularity thanks to fansubbing, Haruhi, anyone?

If only they're care to licence the tons and tons of older anime for streaming and/or selling domestically and internationally... I imagine that most of it would be streaming, since many titles are too niche, fansubbing would still be around for a couple of reasons (Authoritarian Regime restrictions, State-sponsored Homophobia/Anti-Japanese Sentiment/What have you, poverty of those who don't have money for subscriptions, etc), but the number of people reached by these services would be enormous.

All the unlicensed anime that is being lost, even at a domestic level, I imagine, is a cultural tragedy. And speaking of culture, I believe the United Nations said something about the Human Right to Access Culture. I keep hearing Macross is this awesome meta-series... and yet, people will tell you you shouldn't watch it because it wasn't licensed. And yes, apart from massive straming of hundreds and hundress of anime (and manga and light novels, why not? And the Soundtracks as mentioned), why not the option of purchasing downloads of all of these items? They're sitting on a gold mine, for Christ's sake.

It would be win-win for all, indeed.

Zalis116 wrote:
Hellsoldier wrote:


2 - Point two: The great popularization of aniime these last years comes from fansubbing.
What "fansubbing"? Other than little-girls' shows like Jewelpet and Precure, or the occasional title like Amagi Brilliant Park that falls through the cracks, no current/seasonal anime gets "fansubbed" under the traditional sense of the word -- it's all direct rips of official streams or edits of official streaming subs by former fansubbing groups, which either get downloaded by end viewers or re-encoded by bootleg streaming sites.

Quote:
3 - Believe it or not, regional restrictions exist which further helps the existence of fansubbing.
Yet current "fansubbing" is done by the same entities and in the same languages/dialects as before. If fansubbing were flourishing more in underserved regions and countries, we'd see more subbing activity in other languages or English dialects, but we still see demands that English-language groups simplify their subs for international/non-native viewers, or demands from region-locked UK/AU/NZ English speakers for US-based groups to make their subs less "American." And plenty of people in regions where legal, unrestricted streams are available continue to consume "fansubs," either because they don't want to deal with ads/subscription costs, or because they feel the official presentations are lacking.

Quote:
5 - Without fansubbing, some anime would be rare or, in more extreme cases, lost. Some already is. When was the last time anybody heard of a Seraphim Call stream or box-set?
You mean the 1999 anime whose December 2004 boxed set release is still easily available for less than MSRP? Clearly, it never was in-demand enough to run the risk of becoming rare. Plus, the only downloadable version of Seraphim Call is a rip of those same Media-Blasters R1 DVDs -- in other words, not a fansub at all!

SWAnimefan wrote:
While illegal / pirate sites can take away some potential sales, they also keep older titles around for people to watch and actually encourage sales of titles long out of print.
I'm sympathetic to the goal of keeping older titles relevant in the fandom, but sales of out-of-print titles generally come from secondary re-sellers (which is legal, but proceeds don't go to publishers) -- after all, a title that's still being sold by publishers is otherwise known as... an in-print title, right? And from a publisher's standpoint, viewer attention paid to OOP/unavailable titles is mindshare and money that's being diverted away from current releases that have more of an impact on their cashflow and financial health.


1 - I'm talking about the years prior to the appearance of the Great Anime Video Ripper whose name and existence we all know of. The arguments are still valid on the ground of all the previously mentioned restrictions.

2 - I actually have heard of subbers in Brazilian Portuguese, Arabic, Turkish, Mandarin, Spanish, etc. And besides, English is a language known by hundreds of millions of non-native speakers. I am portuguese, of a native portuguese family(with gallician and jewish ancestry, but still), and I am still speaking to you right now, ain't I? English is the Lingua Franca of the World. If anything, that argument shows that there should be more local fansubbers rather than de-value the existence of existing fansubbers.

3 - The people who don't want to deal with costs just because do exist. But I tell you the majority has to chose between food and subscriptions. Either that or I am too used to austerity in this country.

4 - Well, I'm glad Seraphim Call is not nearly as rare as I thought it was. Though I believe it will at some people. But while Seraphim Call doesn't follow that path, many others do. I keep hearing nobody actually took up Corrector Yui for fansubbing, even after only 18 episodes were released in English. As a consequence I hear it's disappearing.

5 - I should've been a little more clear here: Anime File Sharing in general. And by the way, DVDs have regional reading restrictions. And no, I do not know how much a read-all DVD Player costs, nor do I imagine it being affordable for people who sometimes have to chose which they pay first.

6 - So, why not stream all the less popular shows? Seriously, it's not as pleasing as owning a copy on your hand, but it works.

7 - In my family I actually know of people who bought music records precisely because they were able to listen to them (before Spotify and its limited number of hours for non-premium users showed up). This is the same thing. In fact, many Visual Novels are being brought over to the West thanks to this. That is my point here.

7 - I'm not saying it's your case, since you said nothing offensive here. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a good reason why you're a moderator. But many people will actually take time to say that, if you don't have money, then you shouldn't listen to music, or watch your favorite shows... Even if your love for media and fiction is the only thing saving you from a total breakdown, it doesn't matter, they'll say. In other words, these people will dehumanize you over it. A bit like saying you shouldn't eat because you have no money, you shouldn't have a house because you have no money. It places profit before people, this is what the Law does. States don't actually help people the way they should, economy is in a cataconic state, and people and the law will tell you to swallow it and keep moving forward with no passions, no tastes, no cultural baggage, and often times, no food in the stomach. Here, I summed up what it all boils down to for many people here and elsewhere: If you don't have money, you don't exist.

8 - I believe companies and artists should make a living out of their own products. I believe in supporting artists, like many of the ''pirates'' do, and end up doing when some disposable income shows up. It's just that I doubt the moral decency of the argument that you should chose between food and entertainment.

Alabaster Spectrum wrote:
I still think this guy is a terrible politician with terrible policies and can only hope he ends up out of office soon.


TarsTarkas wrote:
It is all a matter of interpretation. Personally, I think the Prime Minister is only playing to the audience. If the winds change, you'll find the Japanese government's interpretation of TPP changing also.


Mr. Oshawott wrote:
I wouldn't take Mr. Abe's word for it. With all of those ambiguous provisions the TPP contains, the government can use them to their advantage to do what they will without repudiation...including outlawing doujinshi.


He is indeed a terrible leader, and he is backed by the Japanese Business Federation. Don't believe in him. He is more interested in serving companies than serving his people that now has to face more poverty than it used to. He is a nationalist, obsolete, reactionary, sexist, homophobic, corporate suit.

Hey, Japanese Lawmakers, here's a clue: Instead of punishing people for file-sharing, drug consumption and breaking purity clauses, why don't you instead punish hate-speach, deal with the increasing sexual harassment and rape, deal with violence against foreigner, give said foreigners some rights, punish discrimination against women and the LGBT in the workplace, give the LGBT their rights, prohibit historical revisionism, stop breaking families apart with your obsolete family laws and deal with poverty for real? Sounds cool, doesn't it?

But you won't do that, will you?
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manapear



Joined: 02 May 2014
Posts: 1481
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:46 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
If all this leads to is sites like KissAnime being shut down then I'm all for it


I can't stand KissAnime (and many sites like it). I notice they will put up rips straight from the official subs, and I've seen enough obnoxious cases of people not bothering to try and watch the FREE, legal sub of something because they can watch it on KissAnime instead (I guess because no commercials is better, even though it hurts the industry that way).


Alabaster Spectrum wrote:
I still think this guy is a terrible politician with terrible policies and can only hope he ends up out of office soon.


Agreed. He's not great, and he's protested so much in Japan for a reason.


Zalis116 wrote:
Hellsoldier wrote:

2 - Point two: The great popularization of aniime these last years comes from fansubbing.
What "fansubbing"? Other than little-girls' shows like Jewelpet and Precure, or the occasional title like Amagi Brilliant Park that falls through the cracks, no current/seasonal anime gets "fansubbed" under the traditional sense of the word -- it's all direct rips of official streams or edits of official streaming subs by former fansubbing groups, which either get downloaded by end viewers or re-encoded by bootleg streaming sites.


This one is very true and makes me sad. It sucks that childrens' anime (especially the shojo ones) get neglected, but series that get official subs get edits or whatever like you mentioned.


I would have more compassion for translators that better encourage support of official products (very rarely have I seen that lately, and the efforts done when compared between translators kind of say a lot; some don't put much work into promoting the legal version of a series and some make a strong statement on it), or if there were a better balance in genuinely neglected titles, but that isn't the case so much these days. It's also still hard to find more variety of subs for older or neglected series that aren't as old, but there will be so many options for "generic show of the season 2.0."
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:50 am Reply with quote
@revolutionotaku: AMV arguably could fall under fair use. However, Japan doesn't have as strong of fair use laws as the USA. The way you could legally get away with AMV is if it's a public domain anime (some of the ones from the 40s or earlier are) using a public domain song recording.
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