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INTEREST: U.S. State Department Includes Japan's 'Unfettered' Access to Animated Porn in Human Right


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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:02 pm Reply with quote
I will be honest. As much as I enjoy titles like "To Love-Ru Darkness", I do think there needs to be more safeguards for restricting access to extreme titles like this. Heck, I think this belongs in a seinen magazine considering how boundary pushing it is.
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3767
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:08 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
zrnzle500 wrote:

I think it's perfectly acceptable for the US to tell other countries how to care for their kids when they are saying "make sure kids aren't being exploited sexually". And believe you me, or you know read the report (most likely just the summary), that is the point of the relevant section of the report. We can (and should) address our issues while asking others to do the same.


Nothing good comes from saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."


On the matter of preventing sexual abuse of children, I disagree.

@kinghumanity Many Americans find those things you point out unacceptable as well, and even the ones who approve of the policies which lead to those outcomes don't approve of those outcomes.
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Kikaioh



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:22 pm Reply with quote
lebrel wrote:
If instead he had some mags that didn't list the models' ages, you might own c.p. and not even know it (it's not necessarily immediately apparent if a model is 17 rather than 18). The original Japanese law excluded simple possession for this reason explicitly; the law was criminalizing something (16- and 17-year old models) that was relatively widespread (just as it was in US girlie mags from the 60s) and not necessarily immediately detectable.


That sounds ludicrous. "Let's hold back on criminalizing and discouraging modern-day child pornography because maybe your grandpa left underage nudie mags in your attic." The reality was more likely tied to widespread cultural attitudes or even political pressure from major publishers, than some sort of half-baked fear that police would raid people's houses to crack down on 60's porno mags.

animefan1238 wrote:
Because American society is ok with a parent giving their 12 year old daughter short shorts from Abacrombie and Fitch along with an iTunes card so they can download a new rap song about banging hoes while smoking weed and drinking. All the while they should be doing their homework but instead are in their rooms on their own laptop with the TV on so they can see what the kardashiens are doing and snapchatting a boy that lives 100 miles away on their new smart phone they got becauae their old one wasn't the latest model even though it was only 6 months old. Yup we Americans are good here so its time we tell others how to care for their children.

I don't live in Japan so it's not my problem. Need to straighten ourselves out first.


I already responded to this sentiment, but your "tu quoque" argument doesn't invalidate rebukes of Japanese culture, and using cultural relativism here amounts to redirecting/avoiding criticism.
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ChrissyC



Joined: 17 Jun 2015
Posts: 542
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:25 pm Reply with quote
There is truth in this.

We love to say "It`s fake", "fiction" and etc. Yet we are still loving our husbandos, waifus, crying at Angel Beats or wanting to kill Dio. We all seem to turn a blind eye when it comes to sexual abuse of characters because it`s "fake" and not humans, however we are caring about "fiction" on another level all of the time.

I don`t believe it`s because people are biased to the fact that they have indeed cared about things that aren`t real. But rather they seem to unconsciously separate the two.

EDIT: Because I love my bold text.
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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:26 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Other concerns include racial prejudice by police toward Africans and dark-skinned Asian minorities, the practice of law enforcement of selectively editing recorded statements for trial use, poor prison health and mental care, discriminatory employment contracts based on nationality, widespread abuse of persons with disabilities, social discrimination against certain national, ethnic, and racial minorities, and lack of legal protections for LGBTI groups.
Wow, I'm glad the State Department finally decided to take a look at conditions in the US. Wait, this was about Japan?
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lebrel



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:42 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
That sounds ludicrous. "Let's hold back on criminalizing and discouraging modern-day child pornography because maybe your grandpa left underage nudie mags in your attic." The reality was more likely tied to widespread cultural attitudes or even political pressure from major publishers, than some sort of half-baked fear that police would raid people's houses to crack down on 60's porno mags.


In the US, 60's. But in Japan sexy shots of 16-17yo models showed up into the 90's, not just in nudie mags but trashy tabloids, idol magazines, even the type of lowbrow seinen manga mag that runs swimsuit pix along with the comics. IOW, things the average person might have around the house without thinking about it. And the Japanese definition of child porn is pretty strict, stricter than the US in some ways. We in the US can still make Hollywood movies with nekked 17-yo boobies in them, in overtly sexualized contexts, and have them win Oscars.

I doubt publishers had anything to do with it, because the previous law did criminalize production and sale; only simple posession without intent to copy or sell was not criminalized.
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Kikaioh



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:03 pm Reply with quote
lebrel wrote:
In the US, 60's. But in Japan sexy shots of 16-17yo models showed up into the 90's, not just in nudie mags but trashy tabloids, idol magazines, even the type of lowbrow seinen manga mag that runs swimsuit pix along with the comics. IOW, things the average person might have around the house without thinking about it. And the Japanese definition of child porn is pretty strict, stricter than the US in some ways. We in the US can still make Hollywood movies with nekked 17-yo boobies in them, in overtly sexualized contexts, and have them win Oscars.

I doubt publishers had anything to do with it, because the previous law did criminalize production and sale; only simple posession without intent to copy or sell was not criminalized.


"Sexy shots" and "child pornography" are different altogether, and junior idol magazines are still legally sold on the market. Regardless, whether it was the 60's, the 90's or even modern-day Japan, outlawing the sale and possession of real child pornography in order to discourage the existing industry is miles away more important than trepidations that your dad might still have questionable magazines from the 90's.

And where are you drawing your perceptions about the 90's Japanese magazine industry from? Being a huge fan of early and mid-90's anime, I find it fairly difficult to believe that any day-to-day household magazines from the 90's could have regularly featured substantial content that would be considered sexually explicit child pornography. Combine that with the throw-away culture that Japan usually has towards magazines, and it's even more difficult to believe that what you're saying could have ever been considered any sort of compelling issue (though I could certainly imagine detractors of such legislation bandying about that sort of ludicrous reasoning to prevent passage).
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lebrel



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:33 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
"Sexy shots" and "child pornography" are different altogether, and junior idol magazines are still legally sold on the market. Regardless, whether it was the 60's, the 90's or even modern-day Japan, outlawing the sale and possession of real child pornography in order to discourage the existing industry is miles away more important than trepidations that your dad might still have questionable magazines from the 90's.


The definition of child pornography in both the US and Japan includes sexualized partial nudity. How that gets interpreted is to an extent up to the jury, but US courts have ruled guilty in cases involving swimsuit and underwear shots.

And sale and production were criminalized quite some time ago. It was simple posession that was legal until recently, as I've said repeatedly.

Anyway, the US consumes more actual child porn than Japan does. Which suggests that that manga and anime are probably not motivating people to seek out actual c.p.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:37 pm Reply with quote
HeeroTX wrote:
(Problem is) unfettered availability of sexually explicit cartoons, comics, and video games, some of which depicted scenes of violent sexual abuse and the rape of children. (ANN removes that the noted issue is the lack of a LAW implying that society itself doesn't do anything to limit availability without a law)
ANN (notes re: passage):
The State Department wrote that Japan has no law restricting access to the sexually explicit materials. (ANN commentary implies blanket statement about "porn")


The "noted issue" isn't removed. It's broken into two sentences. The word "unfettered availability" = "no restraint in access." The meaning isn't lost. The sentence is then expounded upon in a follow-up sentence that defines further by stating that the U.S. Department says there isn't a law to restrict access.

The commentary doesn't imply a blanket statement about all porn unless you remove all context, like the preceding sentence defining what kind of porn is being talked about.

You got me on "HAS" vs "suggested" wording oversight but if you want to conclude that I'm "cherry picking sentences" when there's only two to pick from and that's the only two in there, well.

lebrel wrote:

Anyway, the US consumes more actual child porn than Japan does. Which suggests that that manga and anime are probably not motivating people to seek out actual c.p.


Is this based on incidents of arrests/download numbers and/or compared vs population size? I'd be curious to see those numbers compared.

lebrel wrote:

Except that Japan does have laws restricting under-18s from buying "restricted" anime and manga, which includes material deemed overly sexually explicit (the age of majority in Japan is 20, so "minors" is incorrect here; minors can buy whatever porn they like, as long as they're over 18...). So young people are already blocked from explicit material involving kids.


I know, it's why I spent several paragraphs after the U.S. Department's statement discussing Tokyo's Youth Ordinance Law. Nevertheless, that's what the U.S. Department wrote.
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bs3311



Joined: 07 Nov 2011
Posts: 416
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:29 pm Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
I won't say that the US is perfect or even great on such matters (it is not), but I can't find any reason to find promoting human rights as objectionable, no matter the messenger. Certainly the US needs to work on its human rights issues, but that doesn't excuse other countries from doing so too. I can't think of a country that can better lobby other countries to adopt better human rights practices.


The million dollar question is what in the USA's claim of, "objectionable." Promotion of human rights not moralistic BS? Everything besides the LGBT seems to be legit concerns. But again, its always about child pornography without added nuance to what is or isn't. But since its not included and US of A is still the moralistic dirt country it is, its clear to agree they include lolicon or hentai. THEY ARE NOT REAL! And the whole, "trying to keep em out of minor hands." Is about as dumb as the ESRB for video games. Kids/otakus can find a way through and parents will mostly be unaware given the japanese work style gives them little to no time to deal with kids or minors.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:36 pm Reply with quote
lebrel wrote:
The definition of child pornography in both the US and Japan includes sexualized partial nudity. How that gets interpreted is to an extent up to the jury, but US courts have ruled guilty in cases involving swimsuit and underwear shots.

And sale and production were criminalized quite some time ago. It was simple posession that was legal until recently, as I've said repeatedly.

Anyway, the US consumes more actual child porn than Japan does. Which suggests that that manga and anime are probably not motivating people to seek out actual c.p.


You should clarify on your information sources/experience. First you're making broad commentary about 90's Japanese magazine content leading to a fairly questionable hesitation to pass anti-possession legislation, and now you're speaking to very particular wording about Japanese child pornography law. That isn't the sort of information that a passing Western fan possesses, let alone the average Japanese citizen. Regardless though, my point still stands -- given the increasing junior idol content being made available in Japan, it's difficult to believe that vast swathes of Japanese constituents could have been concerned about the criminal content of lingering magazines floating around from the 90's, let alone that any mainstream magazines from the period would would have contained such questionable imagery in the first place.

I was also already aware that the sale and distribution of child pornography were criminalized at the tail end of the 90's, and it was possession that was outlawed in 2014 (the wording of my first post in this thread expresses as much).
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lebrel



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:40 pm Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:


lebrel wrote:

Anyway, the US consumes more actual child porn than Japan does. Which suggests that that manga and anime are probably not motivating people to seek out actual c.p.


Is this based on incidents of arrests/download numbers and/or compared vs population size? I'd be curious to see those numbers compared.


I believe it's based on visits to download sites per X people. I can try to find the cite later.

octopodpie wrote:
lebrel wrote:

Except that Japan does have laws restricting under-18s from buying "restricted" anime and manga, which includes material deemed overly sexually explicit (the age of majority in Japan is 20, so "minors" is incorrect here; minors can buy whatever porn they like, as long as they're over 18...). So young people are already blocked from explicit material involving kids.


I know, it's why I spent several paragraphs after the U.S. Department's statement discussing Tokyo's Youth Ordinance Law. Nevertheless, that's what the U.S. Department wrote.


I don't really see why you think they are referring specifically to preventing young people from accessing the stuff? I don't know offhand of any country that age-gates access to fictional sexual depictions of under-18s as separate from porn in general.
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casenumber00



Joined: 05 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:45 pm Reply with quote
I fail to see how this contributes to Japan's exceedingly high rape rate of 14 people per 1000, while the US has 27.3 per 1000.

On a list from highest to lowest among nations for rape rate, Japan is 105 while the US is 14.

At first glance, it seems like a country with a high "unfettered availability of sexually explicit cartoons, comics, and video games, some of which depicted scenes of violent sexual abuse and the rape of children" has a low rape rate rather than countries that have low "unfettered..." with a high rape rate. Of course other factors may be at work.

However, there seems to be something wrong with State Department's operationalzation of what factors lead to rape.


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate
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☆Rin☆



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:53 pm Reply with quote
The day we stop differentiating fiction from reality, we lose.
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Kikaioh



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:00 pm Reply with quote
casenumber00 wrote:
I fail to see how this contributes to Japan's exceedingly high rape rate of 14 people per 1000, while the US has 27.3 per 1000.

On a list from highest to lowest among nations for rape rate, Japan is 105 while the US is 14.

At first glance, it seems like a country with a high "unfettered availability of sexually explicit cartoons, comics, and video games, some of which depicted scenes of violent sexual abuse and the rape of children" has a low rape rate rather than countries that have low "unfettered..." with a high rape rate. Of course other factors may be at work.

However, there seems to be something wrong with State Department's operationalzation of what factors lead to rape.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate


To my understanding, there may be enormous social stigmas in Japan pressuring women to not report incidences of rape, and a police culture that's unsupportive and shifts the blame to the victims of such cases. https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-rape-statistics-for-Japan-so-low
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