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EP. REVIEW: Danganronpa 3: The End of Hope's Peak High School: Despair Arc


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Calsolum



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 898
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:20 pm Reply with quote
ya know in general i thought brainwashing the despairs was a rather weak way to go and i still think it is but given the fact that they had to sacrifice that bit of development for the future arc to be better I can live with it.

But confirming that Izuru wasn't brainwashed by Junko but instead decided to act of his own volition is where I can look at all the flaws and say I can live with it.

Back in DR2 when they revealed Hajame was the base for Izuru I thought it was cool but when it was implied that he was follower of junko i was like... wait what?
Is it because he was an artificially created 'ultimate hope' that he was corrupted by a naturally occurring despair? well that's lame.

I think we are to assume that Izuru was the one who created or perhaps stored/made the data for AI-Chiaki but they used alter-ego's... Operating... System to run her so Chihiro is technically the dad?
Arg ok so imagine Chihiro made a console(the laptop Alter Ego ran on) and a game cart(Alter-Ego's Personality) Izuru just made another game cart(data-Chiaki) and then Makoto and the others who were in favor of saving the despairs had Alter Ego compile and run the data-Chiaki to create AI-Chiaki.
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doubleO7



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 1069
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:24 am Reply with quote
Kyle Brown wrote:
Man the whole 'brainwashing is a retcon' thing is getting quite old. There are a ton of examples all throughout DR0 and DR2 that brainwashing was always going to Junko's main tool to bring about her plans. In DR0, which came out before DR2, shows the reserve course students being forced to watch the student council killing video and being brainwashed by it just like we see in DR3. In DR2 the neo world program was said to be specifically created to deal with brainwashing. Also, Makoto says in DR2 that everyone in the class has just been brainwashed and once they exit the program it will be undone. This was always the plan.


I think most people are just referring to the DR2 cast's fall to despair specifically when they say that, not suggesting that introducing the concept of brainwashing at all is breaking canon. Because everything you said is true, but you know how everyone is always complaining about how Junko didn't break the DR2 cast individually in a more personal way? That's not a fan theory, that's also something that was stated in-game. There's really no getting around the fact that the game does lead players to believe that she mentally broke each student one-by-one. I'm not saying brainwashing wasn't involved, as Makoto himself says as much, but brainwashing comes in many different forms, it doesn't just have to be visual stimuli. It's not hard to see why most people were expecting more of a mental, mind-break indoctrination into despair (which easily falls under the broad definition of "brainwashing") instead of simply rounding everyone up and having them watch a video (again, with the "it happened to everybody all at once" thing being another retcon itself).

I still like to think the method of brainwashing used was a by-product of having a limited episode count to work within, which is understandable (though no less disappointing), as opposed to something Kodaka had planned from the start, or else I don't think he would have intentionally fudged so many details to make it work given his penchant for expertly merging newly-created material seamlessly into an existing narrative (as was the case with DR2, as the first game was meant to be standalone had it not become such a huge hit).
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John Thacker



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 1006
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:00 am Reply with quote
doubleO7 wrote:
I think most people are just referring to the DR2 cast's fall to despair specifically when they say that, not suggesting that introducing the concept of brainwashing at all is breaking canon. Because everything you said is true, but you know how everyone is always complaining about how Junko didn't break the DR2 cast individually in a more personal way?


It's also completely reasonable to say that yes, brainwashing even as performed in DR2 can be canon and consistent, but as done it puts the Despair Arc in a different genre category from the other games (and the Future Arc) and fans of the others may not necessary like the Despair Arc. Everything else in the franchise is a combination murder mystery with tragedy, where the player/viewer is trying to figure out what's going on, the outcome is unknown, and characters are led to tragedy, fall, and murder because of their own flaws, similar to ones that all of us share. In the Despair Arc, while that's true of some characters (like Hinata Hajime and his desire to be special, Sakakura's inability to deal with his sexual orientation), for the most part the villain's plan is perfectly visible and it's executed more with the grim inevitability of the horror genre. Rather than personalized falling because of flaws, we have simple zombification or body snatching, at least of the despairified Class 77. (Though the way people manifest their zombification depends on their personality.) There's always been some elements of horror in the series (such as in the executions) but it hasn't been the only thing.

It's fine to think that this is a reasonable explanation, and as the ending voiceover says how could the story have ended any other way? Yet, for people who like what the rest of the series is about, perhaps it should have just stayed off-screen backstory rather than get animated. Without at least a focus on the individual tragedy of each fall (and even Chisa's wasn't really tragic so much as horror, as her "flaw" was no more than that of Nanami's and she wasn't really led into despair), they don't really find Despair Arc their cup of tea.

In a small way it reminds me of the second season of PSYCHO-PASS, which is perfectly serviceable as an exciting police procedural mystery, but garnered exceptionally bad reviews from some fans of the first season precisely because it utterly sidesteps the central dilemma of the series by postulating a gamebreaking exception. That sort of thing works more or less in other shows, but was unsatisfying particular because of why people watched PSYCHO-PASS. (Hence a gimmick that would have gotten a B on other shows got scores of F in reviews here.)
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Marimo0



Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:52 pm Reply with quote
So do we still talk about the Hope arc special here?

Marimo0 wrote:
justsomeaccount wrote:
but plot-wise, the show hasn't still answered how the hell was she turned into an AI! I guess they're hinting that Izuru may have something to do, but how and why? Wasn't this developed by other Ultimates and knowing exactly who Chiaki (and Usami) was and their purpose? I checked Chiaki's wikia to see if I was missing something, but according to the game's dialogues it seems to notice that Chiaki's father is Chihiro and her big brother Alter Ego, which we have no link of knowing each other, so what the hell! THIS is the biggest plothole out of all, the one question that pondered in my head since we knew real-life Chiaki and it's left unanswered.

First off, you said turned into an AI. If you mean that in the same way Junko turned herself into an AI, I don't think that's what happened. I think AI Chiaki is separate from the real one and just based on her, kind of like what Alter Ego is to Chihiro, only AI Chiaki resembles her counterpart more in terms of personality.

For why she was in the program at all, I don't think that's something meant to be answered by the show. I think the answer is still something you're supposed to look at DR2 and be able to fill in the blanks yourself. I believe the AI Chiaki is considered to be created by both Chihiro and Alter Ego. However, Alter Ego is considered her big brother, not a parent, plus I'm pretty sure Alter Ego was something Chihiro made up during the first game's events and not before the Tragedy. So what I interpret is this:

AI Chiaki's base role, one of the observers, was created by Chihiro when developing the program. That makes Chihiro its father, but at that period it was only a base AI with no distinct or set character. Maybe consider it a yet to be born fetus or something. When the program was later used by Makoto and the others for helping the Remnants of Despair, Alter Ego was uploaded to help set it up, and part of setting it up required creating a character for the observer. They probably had to have some info on the class (Monokuma did have a class roster) so the observer AI was probably given the data on Chiaki by Alter Ego to give it a character, since the real Chiaki wasn't going to be part of the program so might as well take advantage of her absence. This would be when AI Chiaki would really be born as she was, so since Alter Ego had an established character beforehand that would make him in a way her big brother. Besides him not thinking he was an actual parent since he didn't help create her, just modified her, I think the game just didn't want to deal with the idea of programming incest where Chihiro and Alter Ego would both be considered parents to AI Chiaki when Alter Ego is also Chihiro's child and therefore AI Chiaki's sibling as well.

And it probably didn't need to involve some actual connection or meeting between the real Chiaki and Chihiro, Gekkogahara, or Matsuda, since I don't think the character of Chiaki would've been used at all in their program on a normal basis. The Hope Restoration Program seemed like it was meant for general use, not for a specific group of people. They would've had no reason to use her in their program since the only people she had any connection with was class 77, and no one knew about 77 becoming despair until some time after the Tragedy, when Matsuda would've already been dead and Chihiro barricaded in the school building so they themselves wouldn't have been able to put in AI Chiaki. So she could've only been put in later on.


Well I was partly right. Chihiro did create the program and base AI. However Chiaki's characteristics didn't come from him or Alter Ego. Now we know that the program based the AI's character on who the Remnants all wanted to see again.

Also, that gives the ending credits for this series a new meaning. It's symbolic of how piece by piece, their memories together recreated Chiaki.
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wolf10



Joined: 23 Jan 2016
Posts: 901
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:53 pm Reply with quote
Mitarai's whole deal was maybe a bit too much like Hamatora and Rampo Kitan, but Episode: Hope still managed to be a perfect ending. Even though it wasn't strictly necessary, I was glad to have my personal interpretation of DR2's ending validated into canon. I'm sure haters will hate, but I loved it.

spoiler[Yes, Kamukura Izuru is a deus ex machina, but if you've already accepted his existence as a superbeing who plunged the world into despair, you don't get to cry cop-out when that same power gets used to help people.]
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Vannil



Joined: 14 Jun 2016
Posts: 240
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:16 pm Reply with quote
i guess Hagakure's prediction about the end was, in a sense, right. Everybody had a happy ending. Hagakure may claim to be right only about 30% of the time, but his predictions are often right in the games and the anime. (ex: no one is murdered after chapter 3 and him and naegi's kids have the same mom in the bad end in the first game.).

I do kind of wish that they featured a team up of Naegi and Hinata/Izuru for the ending, that could have been cool. Oh, well, GG.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15457
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:16 pm Reply with quote
Marimo0 wrote:
Well I was partly right. Chihiro did create the program and base AI. However Chiaki's characteristics didn't come from him or Alter Ego. Now we know that the program based the AI's character on who the Remnants all wanted to see again.

Also, that gives the ending credits for this series a new meaning. It's symbolic of how piece by piece, their memories together recreated Chiaki.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and took from it that it turned the ED from being sad (despair) to actually being kind of happy (hope).
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