Forum - View topicREVIEW: Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ Sub.Blu-Ray
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DuelGundam2099
 Posts: 533 |
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Yet another review where the overall score is based on story alone despite the higher ratings for literally everything else.
 The math on this is questionable at best, a C+ or B- would have made more sense. Not only that, but I've seen plenty of 80s anime, ZZ Gundam is definitely in the upper range of its era so the average scoring is kind of misleading even if it isn't as high as say Ideon, Xabungle, or even Dunbine.
>I'm actually defending ZZ Gundam I am old. |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2204 |
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And this is what happens when you get Tomino to do series back to back. As for Haman as Judau, it's once again a reminder that Tomino can't write romantic relationships to save his life. And that he also has trouble writing female characters despite the fact that he's clearly trying but failing.
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DmonHiro
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Yeah... the ending to this show, in my opinion, is total garbage. And the last scene with his sister... even worse.
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CES06
Posts: 4 |
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See, the thing is with ZZ, it's never not a comedy, right until the very end.
spoiler[Serious characters like Yazan and even Bright are reduced to laughing stocks, comic relief characters like Mashymre die brutal deaths, Neo Zeon, the side that arguably got the upper hand after Zeta, falls to petty infighting and is taken out by just one ship full of kids, and even people like Fa have had enough of things they decide to exit the story. And there's the stinger at the end where it turns out the Minerva Zabi they had was an impostor. They even killed all of the Ple's.]. If 0079 still had some heroic overtones to the conflict and Zeta showed how tragic and grim war is, ZZ shows how the war is a sick, bad joke that doesn't make any sense. The tonal shift just serves to drive Tomino's point harder. He did it before to some extent with Daitarn 3. As to why Judau would ditch everything and head for Jupiter, poor kid's gotten so jaded he just wants to get as far away from all of it as he can, even if his sister's miraculously turned up alive. Haman and Judau was hardly intended to be anything romantic. That was just Haman creepily wanting after a teenage kid. Really, if you look at it, between all of Tomino's works, ZZ is probably the one that drives his anti-war themes home the hardest. And that ending is downright depressing. The only thing ZZ did wrong is to come straight right after Zeta. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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If we assume the point of Gundam is to show how wrong war is, then this sentiment is the "point" of ZZ. I have to concede to the nature that Tomino cannot write ANY form of romance, be it one sided such as Quess or supposedly a "love at first sight" situation like Kamille and the too many one shot tragic flings, the best Tomino can do is the "nakama" relationship where certainly Judau's group of teen space rats feel like actual buddies after the initial phase of the series made them out as "delinquents that were acquaintances at best". As for viewers in general not enjoying ZZ, it is very hit or miss especially due to the bi-polar tone. And of the first three main Gundam Pilots, Judau was the only one that I enjoyed watching play out whatever scene he was in, I was ambivalent to Amuro and after Zeta progressed detested Kamille and only "didn't hate him" because Tomino decided to be a troll and create Katz. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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I actually liked the second half and hated the first. Seems like that is a minority opinion. I really like where they went with the Ples, and I really like how Haman and Judau ended their, well, whatever exactly it was. I didn't really get a romantic feeling from either side, but that Judau didn't really want to kill her at the end shows there was some kind of connection on his end too.
As for the ending, that did kind of come out of no where. I didn't really see much of a romantic relationship between Lu and Judau. Him leaving his sister also probably could have used more explanation, but my take was that he realized 'oh hey, she was safe all along and didn't need me there to constantly watch over her.' Leina and Sayla had a conversation about Judau having matured enough to leave even if Leina reveals she is alive. Though it has been years since I've seen ZZ... could be more fuzzy on the specifics than I realize. |
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DmonHiro
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That parts wrong since there's one in Unicorn. |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
 Subscriber Posts: 3017 |
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The overall score isn't necessarily an average. Anime shows are more than a sum of their parts. |
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Zetabag
 Posts: 205 |
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Well to be fair that's an obvious retcon as the Unicorn novels were written long after ZZ gundam. I'm pretty sure Tomino intended for all the Ple clones to die by the end of ZZ gundam. |
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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Glemy is gradually shaped into a dictator from his experiences throughout the show that tie in with Haman losing her focus on what her ultimate motivations are, whether the atrocities she committed were worth it to spread her ideals and what the purpose of Zeon is now ultimately after different power shifts and besmirched visions. I think Haman questioning her actions fits in line with ZZ's tone and execution and provides a more reflective and progressive look at how needlessly violent and costly Zeon rebellions have been over time. It's very thoughtful and probably as anti-war as Tomino could've gotten as others have said, and that could perhaps be part of why I love it. Haman sees in Judau--as the person I was chatting with on the last set aptly put in a way--a life she wished she could've lived, but in both circumstance of being born into Zeon strife and the time of her reflecting through Judau, it was hard for her to just give up her ways and back down, especially given what she had done to get there. If she didn't continue to try and pursue her ambitions, the deaths she caused would've been just senseless murder. Glemy also contrasts Haman with his arc, he goes from a wet behind the ears newbie not knowing the horrors of war, to finding some noble warriors to admire in the terrific Blue Team arc, to being traumatized by their deaths and the injustice of their country to become a revolutionary of his own, making for a fantastic civil war tying everything together.
I will say some of the deaths in this series Tomino could've polished up a bit to make less abrupt, but they still register with me emotionally.
Kamille is shown to gradually get his sanity back if I recall, there's a few scenes where his pupils begin to start coming back, he gets up and walks around, starts talking a bit, and then he's healthy enough to start running down the beach with Fa after he was previously unable to even get out of bed and think clearly. The ending is all about living in the moment and looking towards peace, it's not explicit about Zeon being through, but why should it really; that would be too bitter for the optimism attained in the ending, and if you consider what the content prior had been suggesting, Zeon attempts for revolt (for now) will crumble apart from the root, it's not until a regressed Char uses his infamy and charisma to inject new life into Zeon as an old perspective in a contemporary time. It's the most sufficient conclusion of these first 3 TV series, CCA and Unicorn become a little more overt (even heavy-handed perhaps) about putting an end to Zeon, it's not going to change too much though aside from a few hanging details being tied up from each that aren't mandatory necessarily. As for Leina, the whole thing with Judau was solidifying his resolve to help the Federation for something bigger than his own personal, smaller goals in tandem with the whole series being about the reality of war hitting a neutral colony trying to just do its own thing. Judau may be helping the Federation fight off Zeon, but he does it to stop them cold and just have peace, but what was really keeping him there even after Leina's lecture about how he should help the Federation and do something with his skills was still Leina. He had to come to grips with the fact that she had supposedly died at one point, the thing he truly wanted to protect was gone from his life, but everyone told him to persevere and face the reality, and so, in order to prevent further civilian tragedies, he kept fighting Zeon to put a stop to Haman and Glemy. He got rewarded for his noble pursuits with Leina being alive again, and he was so thankful for it, but by that point he had grown up into his own person, he wanted to live for his own sake at the ending, not just taking care of his sister who he'd coped with being dead for so long, again, moving on, so he got the satisfaction of that while leaving her in safe custody for a while longer to vacation with Roux. I was totally on board with it myself. Sure Tomino didn't build up their relationship as explicitly as it could've been, but it's certainly better than Zeta's awful "tragic" one time flings. I also don't think there's nearly as much hijinks in this half as you let on, and nowhere near as tasteless as you suggest, plus the characters I find to be some of the Gundam franchise's most wholesome, rounded and likable cast personally. My love of this series shant be deterred, at least not any time soon. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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Characters like Haman, the Ple sisters, and Judau could have easily screwed up events during Char's Counter Attack, so if they weren't killed they had to be narratively banished and that is the real reason why Judau is shipped off to Jupiter even though his resume status would be "piloting various overpowered prototype mechs, and a pretty potent Newtype" I can only guess Bright pulled a few strings as a favor to the "war hero". |
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DuelGundam2099
Posts: 533 |
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I don't know, it seemed kind of obvious from an in-universe stand point he wanted OUT of war and the progress through the series made that apparent. Seeing his sister alive was likely his last motivation for hiding after he finished off Haman, why put your loved ones in a massive risk again especially when you thought they bit the dust? He had nothing to gain by staying with the feddies, the only difference between him and Kamille is that the latter said it out loud. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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Excellent post. Pretty much exactly what I wanted to say but was far too lazy to type out. I really liked the shift in the series, and for a Tomino series, I'd say the hijinks in the second half are reasonable and low. The second half also really made me care about the characters, most of whom I were really hoping would die during the first half. I especially liked what he did with Haman. Sure, she was great stone cold and ruthless, but to me it felt like she gained a lot more depth while still remaining strong. |
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Kicksville
 Posts: 1175 |
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It was getting the feeling the second half would get a negative review here given the lukewarm reaction to the characters in the first half - although it is the case that there's people who only like the second half.
Me, I liked the whole show. There is definitely a distinct turn in tone hitting the second half, but I do think it still works. That said, it is true that spoiler[Glemy]'s heel turn is very abrupt and pretty clearly out of some sort of production necessity. I was willing to buy it, since it did basically make sense even if it lacked any kind of set up - I found it more forgivable than, say, the pants-on-head stupid twist used at the end of Code Geass season 1 after they wrote themselves into a corner. I suppose a part of why I liked it has to do with the characters not being perfect or rational all the time. I mean stuff like...
I thought the point of that was that she may have thought it was somehow a good thing to say, but obviously was, uh, wrong, and Judau feels like no one else really gets what he's going through. So...yeah, exactly, it was not comforting. The thing with Haman and Judau, also, had kind of a weirdness to it - it wasn't exactly entirely romantic (I mean people can say "whoever doesn't know how to write romance", but it wasn't really like that to begin with), but it obviously wasn't devoid of that either (with the famous seduction scene and all). There is something she sees or wants in Judau that she doesn't seem to know quite how to deal with, and that it appears to manifest as "romantic" perhaps doesn't tell the whole story. But it never just nails the whole thing down that easily, which I suppose is where people's frustration comes from. But yeah. ZZ Gundam is an interesting one alright, and worth the time to find where you'll stand on it. |
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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I think it the issue with ZZ's second half is the shift was too radical and thus not exactly easy to digest, especially when viewed in marathon form. Doesn't ruin the show for me either, because I can enjoy the series for what it is, but I can't say Tomino made the best possible choice. It only works if you're in exactly the right kind of mindset to accept both the initial detour into extreme comedy within an already established serious universe and the return to the theme of "war is hell" that the first half of the series had spent so much time downplaying or outright throwing away.
Can't say I agree with you on either count there. In my opinion, someone like spoiler[Glemy] just wasn't a remotely interesting character and making him evil did not transform him into a credible threat. As much as I appreciate Haman, even when she's not at the peak of her abilities as a schemer, it's rather disappointing how she was briefly outmaneuvered by such an upstart. Conversely...it would be off-topic to elaborate too much about a different show here, but that event in CG wasn't the result of anyone "writing themselves into a corner" at all (in fact, it does have some prior setup that counters this claim). It's over-the-top and silly, yes, but that's the intended effect for various reasons. Then again, I would argue said series did a better job of balancing silly antics and crazy events with the more interesting contents than ZZ did, because they were both present right from the beginning and thus weren't contradicting any previous expectations. But I digress.
Certainly, I wouldn't call it comforting either. Still not too happy with how that whole deal was handled though. spoiler[Sayla to the rescue! How or why could she suddenly do that? Nobody knows. ] |
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