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REVIEW: Black Clover GN 1 & 2


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TrueZangetsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:07 pm Reply with quote
v1cious wrote:
TrueZangetsu wrote:
At this point, do people even pay any attention to reviewers?


Never read this manga, but just that's an unfair thing to say. How else would we learn about more avant-garde masterpieces like "A Drifting Life" and "Bleach"?


Nice diss brah. Don't forget bocu no Pico and fairy tail.
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Hawkmonger



Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 440
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:09 pm Reply with quote
A critical opinion is a subjective one, not an objective one. You can take away from it what you will, that doesn't negate their validity.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:17 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, like what you want to like and dislike what you want to dislike. A critic's job is to say whether or not he or she liked whatever it is they're reviewing and why they like or dislike it. It doesn't mean "You have to like it too" or "You have to dislike it too." It's perfectly valid to see a negative review but decide to try something because you like what the critic disliked or decide against something with a positive review because you dislike what the critic liked.

Stuff like the Tomatometer and the IMDb rankings are metrics of popular opinion. I am interested in seeing what catches on with the general public and what doesn't, and why, so I pay attention to those. But I do not let them influence how much I like or dislike something. I like Johnny Test, but I know lots of people cannot stand it, and I understand why. I dislike The Muppets Movie despite its 98% Tomatometer rating.
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pikabot



Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Like I said, lip service. They say that, but they only say it so Asta can show them up ten seconds later. It's absurdly toothless. You could just as easily ascribe their disdain to him belonging to a disreputable band of knights and it would change absolutely nothing.

It's especially baffling given that the villains appear to be motivated by this class disparity, but Tabata still fails to give us anything to work with on this. This leads to villains making big dramatic pronouncements that are almost entirely incoherent to the reader.

Actually, the whole thing is symptomatic with a larger issue with the series; Tabata is constantly putting the cart before the horse. He wants to have the big payoff moments, but he doesn't want to do the work of setting them up. The most egregious example I can think of was when he introduced all the other captains, announced at the end of the chapter that one of them was a traitor, and then revealed the traitor's identity at the very beginning of the next chapter. What the heck was that?
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:45 pm Reply with quote
pikabot wrote:
a larger issue with the series; Tabata is constantly putting the cart before the horse. He wants to have the big payoff moments, but he doesn't want to do the work of setting them up.


That's why I think he's more an immature/inexperienced writer than a poor one. He's making rookie mistakes in his work and he hasn't yet figured out where he needs to expand and explain rather than where he wants to do those things. I'll honestly be interested to see his second big series (assuming he does one) or at least much later volumes of this one to see if and how he grows.
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pikabot



Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:51 pm Reply with quote
For the record, this IS his second serialized series; the first one, Hungry Joker, was cancelled after 24 chapters.

Rookie mistakes they may be, but that doesn't make them any less of problems for the reader.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:04 pm Reply with quote
pikabot wrote:
For the record, this IS his second serialized series; the first one, Hungry Joker, was cancelled after 24 chapters.


Well, if he's only done 24 chapters, then he is still a rookie. I think most people who read Black Clover here know about Hungry Joker, which is why you see it being called Tabata's first "full series" or "long-runner" or "successful series" or "big series." Hungry Joker was indeed a series, but it was not a successful one.

Makes me wonder if Hungry Joker's swift cancellation compels Tabata to rush the series. Perhaps he has a deep fear in him of Black Clover getting canceled any moment, so he tries to zoom forward. (Another writing flaw I see repeatedly happening in Black Clover and is part of the whole rushed nature is that other characters seem to warm up to Asta incredibly quickly. Luck is the biggest example, treating Asta like dirt up until Asta does one thing and suddenly Luck is Asta's friend. When we see his backstory, it looks like it's going to be a full character arc when it just gets resolved later in the chapter.)

My guess is that whereas people who can hit the ground running when it comes to story, like Kouhei Horikoshi or ONE, had written stories as practice and showed them to friends as feedback prior to going pro, Yuki Tabata was an artist who didn't really write until he went pro.
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Rychy



Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 110
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Nah, it's pretty much the worst manga I've decided to keep reading in Jump. If it wasn't part of the english Jump magazine I wouldn't be reading it and I certainly wouldn't pay for the volumes. The mangaka is ALL about the nakama/payoff moments and doesn't put any effort into building character depth or the world.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 1747
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:14 pm Reply with quote
When I first started reading this, I thought it was just satire of the genre...the orphaned, unloved kid that no one likes, his goal of becoming the best magician to ever live and how, despite his lack of mana (manga states that this is necessary to produce magic), Aster still tries to be the best he can be. This is really all BC is to me; a satire of the genre, even if the manga doesn't want to acknowledge that that's really all that it is. If this were my first experience with Shonen, maybe then I could easily accept this as being new material.

Tabata is a decent artist and I like the characters well enough to keep on reading it during my breaks. I think giving this manga a C, overall, is a good enough grade.
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TrueZangetsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:53 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Yeah, like what you want to like and dislike what you want to dislike. A critic's job is to say whether or not he or she liked whatever it is they're reviewing and why they like or dislike it. It doesn't mean "You have to like it too" or "You have to dislike it too." It's perfectly valid to see a negative review but decide to try something because you like what the critic disliked or decide against something with a positive review because you dislike what the critic liked.

Stuff like the Tomatometer and the IMDb rankings are metrics of popular opinion. I am interested in seeing what catches on with the general public and what doesn't, and why, so I pay attention to those. But I do not let them influence how much I like or dislike something. I like Johnny Test, but I know lots of people cannot stand it, and I understand why. I dislike The Muppets Movie despite its 98% Tomatometer rating.


Maybe I'm a bit extreme on this matter but what you describe is essentially what I'm trying to say. I'm just a bit more extreme as I don't even read reviews anymore because I believe that many if not most critics are extremely biased and don't even try to see the heart and soul of a movie or series but instead concentrate too much on what is considered the formula for s well written story, which is a pattern and IMO a bad thing. Of course I want all character rs to get at least the minimum development and have the climax always be kept interesting by twists and foreshadowing hinting to it. But imo there is so much more a person who had become a critic instead of someone who let's the magic run into their eyes will never experience and that is why imdb user reviews are usually different than critics.

Again I wasn't taking about the person writing this article, but I see a series seeing bashed by lots of critics and it actually makes me wanna read it instead of avoid it. This is what professional movie critics have done to me. I am biased on this matter.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5828
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:23 am Reply with quote
I agree you can see parts of Naruto in it, especially the main character. What sold me was the art work. In a visual media, that manga is, you could have the greatest story ever told, but if the art sucks, it sucks. I am willing to forgive Black Clover its writing sins, hopefully, as the reviewer has stated, the story will come into its own.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:42 am Reply with quote
TrueZangetsu wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit extreme on this matter but what you describe is essentially what I'm trying to say. I'm just a bit more extreme as I don't even read reviews anymore because I believe that many if not most critics are extremely biased and don't even try to see the heart and soul of a movie or series but instead concentrate too much on what is considered the formula for s well written story, which is a pattern and IMO a bad thing. Of course I want all character rs to get at least the minimum development and have the climax always be kept interesting by twists and foreshadowing hinting to it. But imo there is so much more a person who had become a critic instead of someone who let's the magic run into their eyes will never experience and that is why imdb user reviews are usually different than critics.

Again I wasn't taking about the person writing this article, but I see a series seeing bashed by lots of critics and it actually makes me wanna read it instead of avoid it. This is what professional movie critics have done to me. I am biased on this matter.


I would disagree with you about critics as a whole; if they're not passionate about what they're reviewing, they wouldn't have those jobs in the first place. Not every critic is a Pulitzer-winning household name like Roger Ebert was. It's the sort of field you don't go in to be famous or rich, but because you want to do it.

While there are things I like that were panned and things I dislike that got rave reviews, I'd consider them outliers, and I would agree with the critical consensus of a particular work, to a reasonable extent, about 80% of the time. I'll never agree with one completely, but that's the nature of opinions: Everyone's is different. A good critic will understand that, and everyone should understand that the purpose of a review is to give people on the fence about something some idea about whether they might like it or not.

TarsTarkas wrote:
I agree you can see parts of Naruto in it, especially the main character. What sold me was the art work. In a visual media, that manga is, you could have the greatest story ever told, but if the art sucks, it sucks. I am willing to forgive Black Clover its writing sins, hopefully, as the reviewer has stated, the story will come into its own.


Personally, I prefer something with good writing but bad art over something with bad writing but good art. Good writing with serviceable art (enough to convey to me what the writer intends) can still be interesting, but the best art in the world cannot stop a boring story from being boring.

For manga/anime examples, I prefer Mob Psycho 100 over Baku and Takuan's Daily Life (or whatever it's called), for instance.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:03 am Reply with quote
TrueZangetsu wrote:

Again I wasn't taking about the person writing this article, but I see a series seeing bashed by lots of critics and it actually makes me wanna read it instead of avoid it. This is what professional movie critics have done to me. I am biased on this matter.


I did wonder if this was linked to the "us vs. them", "fans vs. critics" debacle going around surrounding a certain recent movie's release.

Like what you like and all that jazz, but I will say you seem to have done yourself a disservice by dropping a dismissive comment like that on a review done by arguably one of the more even-handed reviewers on this site. I could understand it a little better if you were, say, a mega-fan of the series and took umbrage with the comments about blatant homages, but it really seems like you wanted a place to vent about an issue that was only tangentially related to this review (in that it's *a* review, even if it's not of the same medium), and decided this was somehow the best place to do it.

Anyways, strong world-building is usually a big draw for me in shonen series, and it sounds like this series is still pretty slapdash and rough around the edges. I guess it could get better as time goes on, but I typically avoid plunking down cash for a new series unless I already know it has something fresh or original going for it. I don't really have the time or the finances to take a leap of faith in the hopes of "it gets better".
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5828
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:54 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Personally, I prefer something with good writing but bad art over something with bad writing but good art. Good writing with serviceable art (enough to convey to me what the writer intends) can still be interesting, but the best art in the world cannot stop a boring story from being boring.


To each their own. I just feel bad art takes you out of the story. It should be a novel, if you are not going to do the art justice. While fantastic art, might make you forget about the story. Manga is a visual media. The art has to be good. Otherwise it is better to be a novel, and not a manga. But that is just me.
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Nodz



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 524
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:15 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Personally, I prefer something with good writing but bad art over something with bad writing but good art. Good writing with serviceable art (enough to convey to me what the writer intends) can still be interesting, but the best art in the world cannot stop a boring story from being boring.


To each their own. I just feel bad art takes you out of the story. It should be a novel, if you are not going to do the art justice. While fantastic art, might make you forget about the story. Manga is a visual media. The art has to be good. Otherwise it is better to be a novel, and not a manga. But that is just me.


Shingeki no Kyoujin artwork is not that great, and let's not talk about Mob Psycho 100, but still, those are great mangas.
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