Forum - View topicSubaru Natsuki: The Best and Worst Thing About Re:Zero
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G S Palmer
 Posts: 246 |
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Actually, it took him quite a while (though I think anyone would probably be slow to pick up on what was happening if they were suddenly thrown into his position). It didn't bother me when I watched it, but when I watched it with some other people, they were like "how the **** long is it going to take him to realize what is happening?" |
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moteless
Posts: 10 |
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"muh realistic characters muh flaws muh the true of otacos neets in his faces!"
People who probably are first-world teenagers, are not NEETs and not even have social issues. They sure know what they are talking about. Subaru is so realistic that make jokes in life or death situations. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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You can actually watch anime and read manga without being a "cringy otaku." Subaru's consumption of that kind of entertainment isn't what makes him cringy. It's how he internalizes the media and communicates with those around him. It's an immature way of interacting with others and is usually a mix of being unable to read social cues (the speaker cannot tell the listener is not interested in what they're talking about but continues to drone on) and an obsessive level of interest (they only talk about this one interest ad nauseum). Most of my friends and family aren't otaku and those that do like anime/manga don't consume as much as I do for work so I don't subject them to long tirades about shows I know they don't watch or have no interest in. You can actually replace "anime/manga" with any interest. I'd be just as annoyed being on the other end of someone going on and on about baseball. But it is interesting that you assume anyone who works here or writes about anime/manga must have poor social skills and is too self-absorbed to know it. It sounds more like an excuse not to call out annoying fan behavior. Last edited by ANN_Lynzee on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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I didn't watch the show because everything about it scream one of my most hated recurring flaw in shows with any kind of supernatural element, the main character gets an awesome super power so to keep things challenging the author make him an absolute moron (See Hiro from the show Hero for the best example, which I still can't figure out if its intentional based on his name sounding like hero).
But people said it was different and I should watch it so I tried reading the weekly review and.... boy was I right, it apparently take him 19 episode to understand that he can use his power to know stuff about the future and convince peoples, 19 episodes! I don't need a Lelouch or Kira, but this isn't an all or nothing approach. The problem with this analysis is that Subaru is most assuredly the protagonist of the story, he's by far the most powerful existence in the world! Almost no task is insurmountable, the only danger is if he get caught in a inescapable loop (which hasn't featured in the show). For example the fight with the knight, he could have just trained a bit, then killed himself to train some more, rinse and repeat a few hundreds time and boom, he's the best fighter in the entire world just like that. So for him to repeatedly fail doesn't mean he need to accept himself or understand that he's not the protagonist, it's really just about him learning he's just too dumb for what he's trying to do, and no amount of self love or hate can fix that. I mean: "Subaru becomes special simply by recognizing that he's not special", except he's special, completely 100% is, there's no ambiguity there, the guy is special, his power can alter the history in innumerable way. If the show really wanted to go this way, they should have made him powerless. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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In theory this is true but the author actually subverts this in this particular case because Subaru can't set the "checkpoint" he "respawns" at. For that reason, he can't re-do the knight fight at all or undo his fight with Emilia. He also won't find out where a checkpoint is until he dies the first time. So while this works in some cases, it definitely doesn't work in all of them. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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Personally, I'm withholding final judgement on Subaru himself til the series ends, but I feel like episode 18 was less of a Heel Face Turn and more of a starting point for Subaru to accept that he needs to change, and that his journey to becoming a functioning member of society is going to be fraught with mistakes and foul ups. Which isn't to say that I don't find Rem's devotion to be pretty co-dependent, or that I'm not side-eyeing the series for signs of it sweeping all that lovely character development under the rug. Just that, given how well I thought the "screwing up" portions were handled, I'd be pretty shocked if Subaru's self-improvement ended up being a one-and-done kind of deal, rather than a long and bumpy road.
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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He doesn't have to redo the knight fight itself, he can just train before hand, and if he kill himself during the fight (should be fairly easy he has a weapon) he's assuredly going to respawn before it. So long as the checkpoint are before it all work out, he doesn't have to set it himself, it just has to be slightly before the fight, realistically even if it was 5 minute before the fight he could still do just fine since time is never an issue. |
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Muffum
 Posts: 100 |
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I was hoping for something akin to Subaru's big dumb character arc for a while, since I thought it would be the push the series needed to rise above mediocre. But frankly, I ended up not being able to buy into the arc at all, and it killed a lot of remaining interest I had in the show. I don't think there's one defining reason for why it did that for me, instead being a bunch of different factors coming together, but I think a lot of those factors stem from similar issues.
One issue I had was how the series treated Subaru being taught a lesson; more often than not it did so by having bad things happen to other characters. I get the intention behind it, but more often than not there was no logical connection between what Subaru did and what happened to those around him. Rem in particular dies three times before Subaru learns anything, with each death being increasingly disconnected from Subaru's actions than the last. Furthermore, the deaths were often so over-the-top that it felt like the series wasn't using it for anything but the sake of shock value, and it made me think that if the show didn't care about its characters, I didn't have much of a reason to either. Another problem was Subaru shifting between extremes in his approaches felt implausible. Instead of gradually learning what to do, he adamantly refused to take into account any advice others gave him, and just tried wildly different approaches that were all equally invalid. Episode 18 was just one big epiphany for him which let him do more-or-less everything right after continually [expletive] everything up, and it felt less satisfying than if he had gradually done better each loop. It doesn't help that episode 18 took his development in a direction that felt different from what the series was actually leading up to; before, the series was leading up to the message that he could never be the hero he thought he was, and that he should instead do what he could from his position of supposed insignificance. Instead, episode 18 changed it to him not being a hero, but he could become one; that just meant he ultimately didn't have to actually change his thinking much, which again made it less satisfying. I guess those were the roots of the problem, but they resulted in a bunch of different factors that mostly made his character development a chore to watch. I'm still watching, and since Subaru hasn't been as insufferable, the last couple episodes have been slightly more entertaining. However, Subaru's arc dwindled my interest so much that it's difficult that I'm not really that invested at all anymore; at this point I'm watching for in-the-moment entertainment rather than any big eventual payoff. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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I thought something like that might happen, but in the end dying sucks. Subaru almost broke after a few times, do you honestly expect him to be able to hold out after doing it thousands of times? |
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zrnzle500
 Posts: 3767 |
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In addition to what octopodpie said, physical training as you described may not be possible. His muscle memory might stay but judging that his body is intact when he returns, I suspect his body reverts to what it was then, so he would lose any muscles gained. Also, while Return by Death is very powerful, other than that, he is quite powerless. He is not a good fighter in technique or strength and his magic ability is both not very powerful and he hasn't learned to control it. He has the power to change the future but only with enough help. He can't do it alone. He is no omnipotent but stupid god. He just has more chances than most to get a better future. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18189 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about here. He realizes much earlier than that how he can take advantage of his looping. But also see below.
Again, you're trying to make judgment calls without actually seeing the series. (And this isn't the first time you've done something like this, if memory serves.) Subaru is never sure that there isn't a limit on how many times he can loop, so he doesn't push his luck. In fact, spoiler[the only time he suicides to reset, he was in a no-win situation anyway]. Most of his deaths are also incredibly unpleasant, and the series makes an effort to emphasize how repeated unpleasant deaths might work on a person psychologically. |
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cloud8100
Posts: 550 |
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I don't think it really took him 19 episodes to realise to what extent he can use the power. Just that he was mainly busy dealing with the combination of the emotional/mental baggage that came with it and all the crap he'd been through/seen during those 19 episodes along with dealing with his own lack of confidence and also his own reliability that he'd end up the hero due to the typical trope formula. Even having a bad moment taken out of everyone else's memory is just running away and I think part of Subaru knew that or he would've killed himself straight after the fight with Julius. It did cross his mind from what we saw in the anime but he didn't do it and that's important to note and is what actually, in my opinion, makes him a stronger character than people believe him to be. I believe part of the focus on the story is him knowing and understanding that just dying and getting powerful enough to deal with situations isn't necessarily the way to go and he would still essentially be lying to himself or not be able to build up his character. Learning about the world and utilizing the knowledge he learns of people over time is a different can of worms though so I think now that he has made progress with his self-worth he'll utilize the ability to his advantage a lot more. Not necessarily dying just whenever something pop-ups though. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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An issue with Subaru is that the audience is aware that he has actively attempted to run away from the narrative TWICE as of the latest episode, the first time was during the mansion arc of events and Subaru received sanctuary with Beatrice in the library, the second is of course the cited moment when Subaru asks Rem to run away and concede to the nature that Subaru has no power over his situation.
It is an examination of relationships and expectations, Beatrice had no strong relationship with Subaru but just as well could see that he was of an earnest nature so she gives pity to Subaru and promises to him, Rem is infatuated with Subaru and thanks to his actions of saving her from the Mabeasts sees him at least as a respectable person capable of significant feats on the same token she will refuse a request to simply run away especially knowing the potential from the seemingly buffoonish Subaru can be. The issue is in regards to the execution, in the case of Rem it simply felt forced from a narrative perspective that she would convince Subaru to get back on the Plot train. |
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Pierrot.
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Returning by death would also reset all the muscles he'd gain from training and just learning techniques won't help.
Killing yourself isn't exactly fun or painless. You also forget his checkpoint keeps on changing for some unknown reason. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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