Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Yuri!!! on Ice
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Pierrot.
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I see and did any of you bother and read all of the previous posts that were being quoted there?
I'll also explain it in terms you could understand: Go back and slowly read the entire previous posts that were quoted and try understand what they were about. When musouka explains the person who translated the interview left out the part where Kubo says she wanted to allow people to come to their own conclusions, I wrote "Hah I knew it". "Hah" is an exclamation generally used to express surprise, suspicion, triumph, etc. "I knew it" is a phrase used when people's suspicions and guesses ended up being correct. Now keeping that in mind and the quoted argument in my first post, The sentence "Hah I knew it" blatantly implies I was suspicious of the claim that Kubo wasn't being intentionally ambiguous during that scene in episode 7. Now tell me which part of it gave the impression I was goading like CrowLia accused me of?
Laughing at who? And by "it", I'm obviously referring to whether Kubo was being ambiguous on purpose or not. Seriously next time read the quoted posts carefully instead of turning this page into a petty argument regarding what I meant.
What? "Bait" has a lot of meaning but it generally means something intended to entice someone which is what YOI is in fact guilty of doing. Also yes you're right. "passive-aggressive" was definitely the wrong word because CrowLia is being aggressive by claiming I was goading or accusing me of selective reading for no reason at all.
Then why even bring this up? No seriously. Why? |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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I didn't post that to try to undercut what YOI managed with its depiction of the relationship between its two leads. It's pretty obviously a situation where the implication is "I wrote them in love, but think what you like!" rather than the other way around, which is important.
Having said that, when someone is admitting they're committed to ambiguity to the point to coaching the VAs on what to say about their relationship, it also means people shouldn't get ahead of themselves. Victor and Yuuri did not confess their love in front of a church, visibly lock lips on screen, or exchange "wedding rings". All of those things are completely unambiguous actions--Kubo chose to cloak those things in metaphor as a deliberate choice to allow people to watch and come to a non-romantic conclusion, even if I agree that a non-romantic reading is pretty absurd. To go even further, as long as the commitment to ambiguity stands, it means even in a hypothetical second series we're unlikely to get things like a non-metaphorical discussion of how they feel about one another, an unobstructed kiss, or anything stronger than implications as to their relationship status. Saying things like "they're engaged" is not helpful when, as things stand, they have never even said "I love you" and we're unlikely to get a wedding. Ever. Purposefully misconstruing--I blame the original translator, not the people spreading "good news", btw--is even worse because it implies Kubo is committed to the exact opposite of what she actually said, which will only lead to hurt down the line if she stays on the "I'm leaving it open" path, as opposed to pleasant surprise if she and Yamamoto fully take the plunge in the future. YOI was a gift of a series. I've been following its rise with pleasure and want it to do well. I just want others to continue to enjoy it as well, and that's difficult when people are manipulating the writer's words to make it promise something it hasn't. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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This is factually incorrect. The receipt of the rings Yuuri bought clearly says "Wedding ring". So even if I could concede* that they didn't explicitly exchange them with the purpose of engagement, the items they exchange are objectively wedding rings. *operative word being "could". There is nothing ambiguous about the framing of that scene, and even Yuuri's claims about them being "lucky charms" read more as him trying to justify to himself the fact that he just bought wedding rings.
I haven't looked at the Japanese parts -but I have looked at other pages of said interview and those match with what the translator said- but I don't see how you can read statements such as "They can't live without each other" and still believe Kubo isn't "fully committed". Especially given her past tweet about "protecting the world of Yuri on Ice in which no one will get discriminated no matter who you love" |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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None of which negates the fact that Yuuri did not buy and exchange them as a proposal to get married in the future. Do you think we will see a wedding in season two? If you honestly believe that, then that's your prerogative, but if you can admit that there was deliberate obfuscation in the status of their relationship, then it's irresponsible to say things like "they're engaged."
Then why say she wants to allow people to come to their own opinions? Why tell Suwabe he shouldn't give a clear answer on how Yuuri and Victor see one another? You seem to think I'm arguing against assuming on the side of romance. I'm not. I believe Kubo depicted two people in love with one another. I just also believe she left deliberate "outs" for people that are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality, and there are limits of how far she'll go in depicting the relationship. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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No, I don't believe there'll be a wedding, but I also don't believe Kubo is being purposefully obtuse about their relationship, or that not showing any of all these "milestones" that are being demanded for Victor and Yuuri but would never be asked from heterosexual couples makes the show or the writers "baity" which is what Pierrot and Stuart Smith have been claiming from the start
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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If you don't believe there will be a wedding, then do you believe we will get an unobstructed kiss next season? Personally, I'd love for it to happen, think there's a chance it might, but can't say "yes, there will be one 100%." Can you? If you can't, you might want to think why not even that is a given for this particular couple. It's not bait and anyone who says that is being ridiculously disenginous. But at the level of relationship Yuuri and Victor are at, I can't agree that it's too much to want basic things that would be a given for established heterosexual couples in anime either. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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I think there is a possibility of an unobstructed kiss, but since the first one was an artistic choice I can't say it's 100% guaranteed, but what I'm failing to see is why that matters. Why is this relationship being called ambiguous and why people feel they have to demand "explicitness" to validate their relationship, or that Kubo is being purposefully ambiguous, when everything in the show and her statements around them are everything but. Sure it would be nice to see them kiss, but it's not necessary and their relationship is no less real for the lack of an on-the-nose liplock. Not all heterosexual couples actually kiss on the screen (Sakura and Syaoran anyone?), and many that do take eons to get to that point, and many others have the kiss "obstructed", but no one demands to have a "proper" kiss for those.
*I forgot to mention before but I'm with Gina in terms of what their relationship is. I believe they are in a relationship, but they feel no need to label it, they're aware of their mutual love and the fact that they want to stay together, what else do they really need? |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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Again, when a voice actor says the writer has told him it's better not to say how Yuuri and Victor consider one another, how else am I supposed to take that? If Yuuri was a woman, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because we wouldn't have had a omamori ring exchange and metaphorical coach and skater relationship talks to begin with.
You can't have it both ways. If it's too personal and private to depict onscreen concretely, then there's enough room to deny it exists. Sakura and Syaoran might not have kissed, but this is an unambiguous declaration of love onscreen to the other party. YOI does not have that. It's not wrong to want it to. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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I haven't heard about what you mention of the seiyuu, do you know when that was mentioned? If that was some time ago then it stands to reason that Kubo wouldn't want the actors to give away the developments of their relationship before it happened on screen. And doesn't Kubo's very recent statement of "they can't live without each other" count as "definitive statement on how they consider one another"? How more unambiguous can it get? It's this constant goalpost shifting that becomes frustrating.
Also Syaoran's explicit declaration of love to Sakura took 70something episodes to happen, but no one questioned his feelings before that, and no one questions that they were and endgame couple in spite of never being shown to explicitly say they were in a relationship. It's not "wrong" to want it to be more explicit, but saying it's wrong or not good enough if it's not exactly as explicit as you want it is honestly befuddling. |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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It's in the same exact magazine that the interview you're quoting is from. I'm not shifting goalposts, so let me say it bluntly: no, I do not think "they can't live apart from one another" is strong enough to overcome Kubo's stated goal of allowing people to come to their own conclusion about the state of the relationship.
Allowing people to come to their own conclusion is expressing that ambiguity was deliberately written into their interactions. CLAMP did not write Sakura/Syaoran with the expressed desire that people decide the shape of their relationship, which is why there was a concrete declaration of love. When a writer says "decide for yourself," they (and viewers) have to be prepared for some other viewers to come to the conclusion that it's not romantic at all. |
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Cam0
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Yeah, this is kind of what my issue is. All that leads me to an impression that their relationship is somewhere between a coach, friend and lover. The extent of their relationship isn't clearly stated so I'm left unsatisfied. It's the same as any incomplete romance show to me. Kind of. |
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razberry_yum
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Thank you for that link to the blog! In reading some of the translation errors for the earlier eps, I feel almost deprived! Actually, the dub version did amend some of the mistakes, but STILL. She doesn't cover the translation differences that thoroughly for eps 7 - 12, but some of her posts on the later YOI episodes are still good (which I found by just clicking on her yuri on ice tag). Last edited by razberry_yum on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Cam0
Posts: 4888 |
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I also looked at that blog a bit and I knew from before that translating Japanese isn't simple, but that gave me a whole new perspective on it.
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AnimeBoy16
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I somehow never realized it until just recently, but Yurio reminds me a lot of the character Vladimir from the manga Shounen Note by Yuhki Kamatani, except Yurio is a bit older. They're both from Russia and have blond hair, they both start out as immature and arrogant because of their talent but they mature over time, and are rivals to the shy, black-haired Japanese main protagonist in both series.
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