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EP. REVIEW: Drifters


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Azmodeus



Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 184
Location: Sweden, ass end of nowhere
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:00 am Reply with quote
^Yes, as i said, we agree on the fight being a bit too lopsided. But i disagree that the show showed any biases by having her be shut down when she was defeated. More then anything, Drifters is a show about the gorier, uglier side of war and how it can be both exhilarating and ugly at the same time(mostly the spectacle bit) . In that vein of writing, making some kind moral statement in the narrative, in the middle of an ongoing battle, would have stuck out like a sore thumb. It's that kind of writing that makes some characters or stories go from seperate entities to writer tracts. A trait that has been universally derided, since it often robs the characters and stories of their narrative cohesion and impact.

And i also think you're putting the Cart ahead of the horse here. Joan is still alive, Toyohisa has been accused of foolish behaviour many times, and the difference between both Drifters and Ends worldviews are already established as being a major factor in their actions ( our samurai trio has shown a markedly different attitude towards fire then the kamikaze pilot, for instance).
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:39 am Reply with quote
You guys made a page worth of analysis that was literally answered in two minutes the next episode, the part in which Toyohisa is called out just happened later. And honestly, this is actually funny.

Toyohisa has never been stated to be a particularly good person, or even a person that respects other people, and that's been repeteadly stated individually for other Drifters. Nobunaga is one hell of a crafty politician that has done bad to his eventual allies so they would be in a lesser position to reel them in for his interests, and Toyohisa's code basically revolves around killing people.

It's in reverse to usually finding flaws to more or less good persons, it's about finding good traits within them, which are actually scarce, given that all of the Drifters do is (as painted by Olminu most of the time) crazy and brutal. Interestingly enough, Abe no Seimei is the sole Drifter that hasn't been drawn from an exactly over-violent life, which also explains his lines when trying to understand Toyohisa as someone "not from peaceful times".

The anime has been obvious about most of these character's flaws, and indeed takes them as a strong point of characterization, making each character far more particular and memorable. If Yoshi had fought Jean, he probably would have just killed her and that would've been just some cool battle, nothing else, this on the other hand shows a great deal of Toyohisa AND Jean's character, which certainly has not given the last word and the rematch and her forcing Toyohisa to acknowledge his mistake for letting her go eventually.
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 2949
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:33 pm Reply with quote
So here's a random question, if Hitler was there, why didn't he introduce gunpowder?
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D-Scythe911



Joined: 22 Oct 2016
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:11 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
So here's a random question, if Hitler was there, why didn't he introduce gunpowder?


Most likely because even though he knew about gunpowder he still didn't know how to make it. Especially with methods and resources restricted to a time and setting of the feudal age.

Also just a small nitpick from the reviewer for ep 9, but it was actually Toyohisa who first came up with the tactic of using Olminu's stone wall as an offensive weapon. in such a way. Nobunaga even gave praise to him for that idea. I know it's not that much of a serious matter but I like to see credit to be given to the characters who deserve it.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 9473
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:27 am Reply with quote
^ I think James was talking about the stairsteps, but even that was Hannibal's idea. Smile
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James_Beckett
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 23 Nov 2015
Posts: 226
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:32 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
^ I think James was talking about the stairsteps, but even that was Hannibal's idea. Smile


I was, though you are right about that Anime hyper I meant more to focus in on his realization of the offensive capabilities, though I should have worded it more clearly.
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Snomaster1
Subscriber



Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 2342
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:59 am Reply with quote
I'd like to know something. One of the "Drifters" characters looks like he's one of the Titans from "Attack on Titan" or is it just me that's thinking that? I saw the guy's picture on the preview of the article for this and I was wondering if anyone felt the same way I did.
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SHD



Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 738
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:15 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
this week we have to begin the episode with a weirdly elongated scene of Nobunaga explaining how “androgynous people” like Saint Germi are naturally duplicitous and underhanded, abnormal “on the inside and on the outside”.

Uh, I don't know how it went in the sub (the translation had issues since episode 1), but here he's not supposed to be talking about "androgynous people" being untrustworthy, but amoral sociopaths which Saint-Germi is. Like, I won't pretend that the show is all progressive and everything, and it does use Saint-Germi as a joke, but in this case, they're not distrusting Saint-Germi because he's a crossdresser, it's because he's betrayed his country at least twice at this point. Last time Nobunaga went out of his way to compare him to Matsunaga Hisahide, someone who built his entire political career on betrayal and ended up betraying Nobunaga himself twice. (And who, by all historical accounts, wasn't a crossdresser... and whatever "homosexual" even means in a culture where after a certain social position you're pretty much encouraged to bone pretty boys. Nobunaga himself had Ranmaru, as pointed out in episode 1, and he's been shown missing Ranmaru.)
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Luke's Yu-Gi-Oh! Channel



Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:16 pm Reply with quote
I can't get enough of Nobunaga in this series, he is the best character.
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#844391



Joined: 09 Sep 2015
Posts: 517
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:50 pm Reply with quote
SHD wrote:
Quote:
this week we have to begin the episode with a weirdly elongated scene of Nobunaga explaining how “androgynous people” like Saint Germi are naturally duplicitous and underhanded, abnormal “on the inside and on the outside”.

Uh, I don't know how it went in the sub (the translation had issues since episode 1), but here he's not supposed to be talking about "androgynous people" being untrustworthy, but amoral sociopaths which Saint-Germi is. Like, I won't pretend that the show is all progressive and everything, and it does use Saint-Germi as a joke, but in this case, they're not distrusting Saint-Germi because he's a crossdresser, it's because he's betrayed his country at least twice at this point. Last time Nobunaga went out of his way to compare him to Matsunaga Hisahide, someone who built his entire political career on betrayal and ended up betraying Nobunaga himself twice. (And who, by all historical accounts, wasn't a crossdresser... and whatever "homosexual" even means in a culture where after a certain social position you're pretty much encouraged to bone pretty boys. Nobunaga himself had Ranmaru, as pointed out in episode 1, and he's been shown missing Ranmaru.)


Agreed, I think the reviewer tried to read into it a little too much. Gays have been made fun of in manga/anime for a long time, usually being thrown into two categories, the super prissy like St Germi or the super macho muscle like the Thebes group (unless its a BL show or something targeted at a female audience).

Nobunaga's character is built around how he has been stuck in a pattern of betrayal and underhanded dealings his whole life so he's going to be spotting all the bad traits in people around him. He calls out St Germi as being a person who will betray others quickly based on St Germi's actions as well as his past experience with similar events, not based on whether or not St Germi's gay.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 9473
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:14 pm Reply with quote
SHD wrote:
Quote:
this week we have to begin the episode with a weirdly elongated scene of Nobunaga explaining how “androgynous people” like Saint Germi are naturally duplicitous and underhanded, abnormal “on the inside and on the outside”.

Uh, I don't know how it went in the sub (the translation had issues since episode 1), but here he's not supposed to be talking about "androgynous people" being untrustworthy, but amoral sociopaths which Saint-Germi is.

Toyohisa: They are peculiar not only outside but also inside.
Oda: They are bizarre. They are weird, body and soul. They are weirdos. They are deviants.
(emphasis added)

Seemed pretty clear to me they were extending it beyond Germi to androgynous people in general, since amoral sociopaths don't necessarily appear any different on the outside. The sentiment here is obviously, if they look bizarre outside, you can assume they'll be bizarre inside too.
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chaccide



Joined: 16 Aug 2016
Posts: 295
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Sorry, even if he was denouncing St Germain for his betrayals, the show was making cross dressing, transgender, and homophobic jokes that were really distasteful. And don't tell me people thought this way historically. The author and anime creators CHOSE to include this content, content which, I might add, is extremely irrelevant to the story. They chose to make St Germain a transgender joke for comic relief. And the fact that in real life he was a guy who raped, tortured, and murdered kids makes their portrayal of him as transgender all the more disgusting.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 9473
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:27 pm Reply with quote
chaccide wrote:
And the fact that in real life he was a guy who raped, tortured, and murdered kids

Wait, what? Shocked I admit I don't know much about him, but from what I've read he seemed pretty harmless, and kind of interesting. Are we talking about this Count St. Germain?
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#844391



Joined: 09 Sep 2015
Posts: 517
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:32 pm Reply with quote
Keep in mind this is a series that has Jesus as the arch villain who is trying to wipe out humanity. It's also got some characters that are normally considered heroic that are helping him out, like Joan of arc as a psychopathic pyromaniac. If you're looking for political correctness then you are looking at the wrong series.
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SHD



Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 738
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:42 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
SHD wrote:
Quote:
this week we have to begin the episode with a weirdly elongated scene of Nobunaga explaining how “androgynous people” like Saint Germi are naturally duplicitous and underhanded, abnormal “on the inside and on the outside”.

Uh, I don't know how it went in the sub (the translation had issues since episode 1), but here he's not supposed to be talking about "androgynous people" being untrustworthy, but amoral sociopaths which Saint-Germi is.

Toyohisa: They are peculiar not only outside but also inside.
Oda: They are bizarre. They are weird, body and soul. They are weirdos. They are deviants.
(emphasis added)

Seemed pretty clear to me they were extending it beyond Germi to androgynous people in general, since amoral sociopaths don't necessarily appear any different on the outside. The sentiment here is obviously, if they look bizarre outside, you can assume they'll be bizarre inside too.

If that's what the subs came across then it's the translator misunderstanding the situation. (Again. I haven't seen many episodes with subs but among those that I've seen, each and every one had at least one instance of the translation being completely wrong.)

They start out talking about traitorous sociopaths in general, and then at the end they start taking potshots at St Germi. The dialogue is supposed to go this way, paraphrased of course:
"But Nobu, it's a wonder that you trust that guy." (given that he blatantly admitted to betraying his country, and having had betrayed it earlier)
"Well, you know, you have this sort every now and then. The kind that betrays easily, has no sense of loyalty, etc etc. They(! as in, amoral sociopaths in general) don't betray out of grudges or malice but out of their own interests, etc etc.
That's why I can trust him(! this is where he starts talking specifically about St Germi), as long as he's betraying someone else."
"Weird. So he (again, St Germi specifically) is not just weird on the outside but on the inside as well."
etc etc. from that point they're talking about St Germi.

This should be pretty damn obvious I think. Also as mentioned above, this is how it feeds into Nobunaga's assessment of St Germi in the last episode - he knows how to handle St Germi because he's had more than enough experience dealing with being betrayed, and more specifically someone who was a serial backstabber. (Matsunaga Hisahide - look him up and see the list. Sure it's probably not all historically true, but Hisahide is remembered as the guy who betrayed everyone who stood in his way.)

Again I'm not saying the show is progressive and above offensive/backwards humor, but this instance, this piece of dialogue wasn't about how all queer/androgynous/etc. people suck and are untrustworthy. At all.

(I mean, seriosuly, there's Yoichi, and nobody is questioning his trustworthiness. Nobunaga has been mentioned to miss Ranmaru. Toyo wasn't scandalized when he mentioned that he thought Yoichi was Ranmaru ie. Nobu's lover. Nobody is questioning the Thebes Brotherhood's loyalty or capabilities as soldiers. Etc.)

chaccide wrote:
And the fact that in real life he was a guy who raped, tortured, and murdered kids makes their portrayal of him as transgender all the more disgusting.

You're thinking of Gilles de Rais not Count Saint-Germain.
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