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EP. REVIEW: Drifters


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zrnzle500
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:03 am Reply with quote
I wasn't saying it did make sense to criticize the show for depicting it as it was. I said the following

Quote:
but I do not hold it against the show for bringing it up as that was a common sentiment at the time and a long time past that.


I don't think the show ought to be criticized for it but that doesn't mean we should hold back from criticizing the sentiment itself.
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Kikaioh



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:48 am Reply with quote
I'm trying not to fault the show for expressing those sorts of sexist attitudes, since they're likely reflective of the way the characters would have viewed women in their lifetimes. That said, it's reasonable for people to respond negatively when those attitudes appear all the same --- Toyohisa's reaction was demeaning towards Joan of Arc solely because of her gender, and I dislike his character less for it. I can appreciate the historical accuracy, but that doesn't mean I have to like the history itself. Or to put it another way, it's okay that they portrayed him as being sexist, but that doesn't mean that his sexism is okay.

I guess my worry, though, is that while the show is trying to marry history with a schlocky story, it's still fiction -- so part of these portrayals is historical, but the other part is the voice of the authors/staff. So I'm left to wonder how much of Toyohisa's reaction was history, and how much of it was the creators expressing their own views (particularly given how likable they made his character in the show thus far). I guess we'll see more as the show continues, but if anyone has experience with Hirano's works to have a sense for it, I'm curious.
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Azmodeus



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:00 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
The past is the past. It is not the present that we live in. [snip]
If we are only going to present a sanitized version of the past, does it really make sense to even go there.

But I guess that is just the way of things now. Hell, my parents would be considered child abusers now, because they made me walk a couple of miles to and from school sometimes. It's really sad.


I don't know if i was part of this criticism, but i meant mine critique more from an action perspective. This is the 1st time we see an End going up against a Drifter, and also two of the most well known warriors of their respective eras. I expected a bit more then Joan move spamming her fire and Toyohisa winning the moment he got up close. Giles 'de Rais vs. Yoichi was more what i had in mind, a visceral fight between two opponents of supreme skill and might.
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Baskerville



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:04 am Reply with quote
To those who wanted hand-to-hand combat between Toyohisa and Joan...that would not have been possible. Toyohisa is a master swordsman and Joan was not...not even close...so at close range he would've sliced her up. That's the point of Joan's fire power, to fight from a distance and burn everything and everyone.
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Azmodeus



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:07 pm Reply with quote
Baskerville wrote:
To those who wanted hand-to-hand combat between Toyohisa and Joan...that would not have been possible. e.


Sure it was. use flames until up close, attempt what she saw her countrymen and the English do, discover she's outmatched, put up a flamebarrier and retreat. Hell, this exchange had them getting in close and Toyohisa won because he extinguished her flames. And that's not even getting into if she would have had a platoon of incited demi-humans with her (which was her strong suite, rile up the troops).

I liked the episode, but they could have done more with that fight. here's to hoping she turns into a reverse Seles and use her friends death as motivation to improve her fighting prowess.
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meiam



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:06 pm Reply with quote
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For instance, we get the briefest, twenty-second long cutaway to Saint-Germaine and his posse for a quick joke


That wasn't for a quick joke, it was for foreshadow, saying "THIS GUY IS AN ALCHEMIST AND HE'LL FIX THE PROBLEM WITH GUN!"
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JAYOOD



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:07 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
I'm trying not to fault the show for expressing those sorts of sexist attitudes, since they're likely reflective of the way the characters would have viewed women in their lifetimes. That said, it's reasonable for people to respond negatively when those attitudes appear all the same --- Toyohisa's reaction was demeaning towards Joan of Arc solely because of her gender, and I dislike his character less for it. I can appreciate the historical accuracy, but that doesn't mean I have to like the history itself. Or to put it another way, it's okay that they portrayed him as being sexist, but that doesn't mean that his sexism is okay.

I guess my worry, though, is that while the show is trying to marry history with a schlocky story, it's still fiction -- so part of these portrayals is historical, but the other part is the voice of the authors/staff. So I'm left to wonder how much of Toyohisa's reaction was history, and how much of it was the creators expressing their own views (particularly given how likable they made his character in the show thus far). I guess we'll see more as the show continues, but if anyone has experience with Hirano's works to have a sense for it, I'm curious.


I agree that you can argue this book might be insensitive to women but I dont think that you can think that this book is "sexist" or that the author is either not to claim that you are saying so. And of all the examples of degrading portrayals of women you picked the least offensive lol. I dont even think Toyohisas overall attitude was that bad, its not that different from the ideology of not involving women and children in war. Though from the way he says it makes it seem like women are a waste of his time on the battlefield. With that said I think the nature of the work is more crude than sexist. Also Hiranos best work Hellising features some of the most badass female characters so theres that.
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Johan Eriksson 9003



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:42 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
@zrnzle500

It makes no sense to criticize a show for depicting the past as it actually was. Every show and movie that depicts the past are going to contain elements that some find offensive. That should be a given, and it shouldn't be a means to criticize that show or movie, unless it truly glorifies that element.

As to the other thing, I doubt things are going to get better. Everything is framed as 'save the children'. It is kind of hard to go against that without getting burned.


No one is criticizing the show for "portraying history" by having historical figures hold to outdated biases. They are criticizing it for NOT CALLING THAT SHIT OUT for the outdated, pathetic and backwards biases they are. Toyohisa acts EXTREMELY disrespectful and sexist towards Joan, and no one calls him on it. Joan isn't given the last word to shake him, no other character is there to criticize him for it. The show as a whole not only lets this blatant bigotry pass, it frames it as a part of Toyohisa's "warrior code", a trait that we are supposed to LIKE him for, and that is some grade A BS. There is nothing at all to suggest that we are meant to view his sexist crap as a character flaw and more to suggest that we are meant to admire him for it. The fact that there isn't a single female drifter in the cast also does not bode well for the future of the show and its treatment of women.
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#862687



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:41 pm Reply with quote
[quote]
Quote:
No one is criticizing the show for "portraying history" by having historical figures hold to outdated biases. They are criticizing it for NOT CALLING THAT SHIT OUT for the outdated, pathetic and backwards biases they are. Toyohisa acts EXTREMELY disrespectful and sexist towards Joan, and no one calls him on it. Joan isn't given the last word to shake him, no other character is there to criticize him for it. The show as a whole not only lets this blatant bigotry pass, it frames it as a part of Toyohisa's "warrior code", a trait that we are supposed to LIKE him for, and that is some grade A BS. There is nothing at all to suggest that we are meant to view his sexist crap as a character flaw and more to suggest that we are meant to admire him for it. The fact that there isn't a single female drifter in the cast also does not bode well for the future of the show and its treatment of women.


Who would call him out on that? Other drifters in here are from the same time and with the same mindset. And time is the dark ages so elves would live in kind of a same mindset.

For me the part that we are supposed to admire(or take away) about Toyohisa with the thing with not killing Ark is that he is not doing what is the smart thing to do, but the thing he believes in. Killing her would mean less death on his side, but he still won't do it because he does not want to do that. He is fighting for the personal honor and to take the heads for his enemies in the way he wants to, not because he has to,

Maybe I just can't be mad when the sexism is at the level of: ''females should not go to war, they should stay in homes and cook''. It is so on the nose that I don't think anyone will think:''yeah that is right''. At the same time it is not framed as it would be true but as Toyohisa's stupidity that came from living in the times.
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Johan Eriksson 9003



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:17 pm Reply with quote
[quote="#862687"]
Quote:


Who would call him out on that? Other drifters in here are from the same time and with the same mindset. And time is the dark ages so elves would live in kind of a same mindset.

For me the part that we are supposed to admire(or take away) about Toyohisa with the thing with not killing Ark is that he is not doing what is the smart thing to do, but the thing he believes in. Killing her would mean less death on his side, but he still won't do it because he does not want to do that. He is fighting for the personal honor and to take the heads for his enemies in the way he wants to, not because he has to,

Maybe I just can't be mad when the sexism is at the level of: ''females should not go to war, they should stay in homes and cook''. It is so on the nose that I don't think anyone will think:''yeah that is right''. At the same time it is not framed as it would be true but as Toyohisa's stupidity that came from living in the times.


I literary just gave you an answer to that first question. Joan herself was there so why not just let her say or do something at the end to prove Toyohisa wrong? By giving him the last word just as he "schools" her the show is validating his sexist drivel. Or if not her then how about Olminu? She is a woman and she obviously wants to be useful so I say it would be perfectly in-character for her to question Toyohisa when expressing an attitude that says women will always be inferior on the battlefield. And there is litterary no reason for the elves and other fantasy-races to hold similar views just because their world is vaguely midieval. They are from a completely different world with their own history and unlike the drifters who are supposed to be semi-true to history there is no value in holding them to some arbitrary "realism". If they have those same views, then it is because the author WROTE them like that even though he didn't have to.

And yes, I GET that we are supposed to admire Toyohisa's decission here because he is "doing what he believes in" rather than doing what he "should" do from a pragmatic standpoint, and it doesn't do shit to make it any better. They could have shown this exact same thing with any number of other aspects, like revisiting that previous belief of his that you should never kill an enemy that has already given up. By making THIS the belief that he "sticks to" regardless of consequences it once again VALIDATES his neanderthalism by going "It's ok to treat women like lesser beings and tell them to get back in the kitchen as long as it is something you BELIEVE in very strongly", and that is just really [expletive] shitty.
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Iron Maw



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:56 pm Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:


I literary just gave you an answer to that first question. Joan herself was there so why not just let her say or do something at the end to prove Toyohisa wrong? By giving him the last word just as he "schools" her the show is validating his sexist drivel. Or if not her then how about Olminu? She is a woman and she obviously wants to be useful so I say it would be perfectly in-character for her to question Toyohisa when expressing an attitude that says women will always be inferior on the battlefield. And there is litterary no reason for the elves and other fantasy-races to hold similar views just because their world is vaguely midieval. They are from a completely different world with their own history and unlike the drifters who are supposed to be semi-true to history there is no value in holding them to some arbitrary "realism". If they have those same views, then it is because the author WROTE them like that even though he didn't have to.


Joan just got save from nearly being brunt to death is half-crazed, she not any mindset to care about such things when she wants everything to die. Olminu too thanking the stars for just being alive and wondering if Toyoshina is madman. The Elves and other races just land and lives back. None of these people or in are position to care gender-politics when everyone is face with oppression and genocide.

Frankly Drifters not a story about being PC, it's not going around correcting attributes historical figures to bring them up to modernist standard. Toyoshisa like many long dead famous people have bout their admirable traits and flaws that reflect their respective era. Toyoshisa is still ultimately a good person his view about women clears stems from a moral perspective not self-serving one. He clearly believes it is man's duty to bare burdens of hardships of war so that women and children never have to experience those horrors. For Toyoshisa a man is no more a meat shield for that purpose not that women are worthless (to his credit he actually had Olminu takedown Joan) the opposite he holds in much higher regard than men. It's quite a chauvinist viewpoint but it's inline with general Knighthood and Samurai Classes belief. It's not something the should praise or censor, but to simply show how this person or place are. Afterall the main theme of this episode is how each Drifter follow their own principals as lofty or questionable as they might seem. Maybe Toyoshisa will change his mindset at one point, maybe he won't but regardless of what happens he shouldn't change to simply placate who disagree with him, but because it happens for natural reasons.

Bare in mind, I'm not condoning his views, but I can understand where they are coming from as misguided as their are. Mainly because Toyoshisa is the type of person who if he ever saw a child solider would personal match down to his or her superiors and strike them down.


Last edited by Iron Maw on Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zrnzle500
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:54 pm Reply with quote
Well whatever happens to Toyohisa's views on women, I think he will have to kill Joan. Why else would they keep her in the story other than to throw at him until he has to make an exception?
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Johan Eriksson 9003



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:18 am Reply with quote
Iron Maw wrote:

Joan just got save from nearly being brunt to death is half-crazed, she not any mindset to care about such things when she wants everything to die.


Are...you...[expletive]...kidding me?
Discrimination against her gender is her ENTIRE reason for wanting everything to die in the first place. It it literary ALWAYS on her mind. We SAW her react very strongly to Toyohisa questioning her gender when the battle started and you honestly think it would be out of place for her to care about being treated like a lesser being AGAIN?

Quote:
Olminu too thanking the stars for just being alive and wondering if Toyoshina is madman.


And why would this stop her from having an opinion on sexism? Do you just not know how writing works? As the author YOU control the actions and reactions of your characters.

Quote:
The Elves and other races just land and lives back. None of these people or in are position to care gender-politics when everyone is face with oppression and genocide.


And oppression based on gender is very much PART of that. By not addressing this the author is missing a crucial part of the themes he supposedly wants to put forth.

Quote:
Frankly Drifters not a story about being PC, it's not going around correcting attributes historical figures to bring them up to modernist standard. Toyoshisa like many long dead famous people have bout their admirable traits and flaws that reflect their respective era.


Yes, but an integral part about writing characters like that is to make it clear what is supposed to be character flaw. Otherwise you are just championing backwards thinking.

Quote:
Toyoshisa is still ultimately a good person his view about women clears stems from a moral perspective not self-serving one. He clearly believes it is man's duty to bare burdens of hardships of war so that women and children never have to experience those horrors.


Um, no? He says outright that he views taking the head of a woman to be "no great feat". His views stems purely from seeing women as inferior. Besides, even if that was the case it would still be backwards as fudge and should be called out as such.

Quote:
For Toyoshisa a man is no more a meat shield for that purpose not that women are worthless (to his credit he actually had Olminu takedown Joan) the opposite he holds in much higher regard than men. It's quite a chauvinist viewpoint but it's inline with general Knighthood and Samurai Classes belief. It's not something the should praise or censor, but to simply show how this person or place are.


Except they ARE praising it by making it part of his honorable code which we are supposed to admire him for. Criticizing something is not "censoring" it. I have already said that they can make Toyohisa sexist, as long as they also CRITICIZE him for it instead of just showing it (in a positive light).

Quote:
Afterall the main theme of this episode is how each Drifter follow their own principals as lofty or questionable as they might seem. Maybe Toyoshisa will change his mindset at one point, maybe he won't but regardless of what happens he shouldn't change to simply placate who disagree with him, but because it happens for natural reasons.


I'm not asking for him to change at all. I'm asking the show to actually treat his flaws as FLAWS and not lionize them or let them pass without question.

Quote:
Bare in mind, I'm not condoning his views, but I can understand where they are coming from as misguided as their are. Mainly because Toyoshisa is the type of person who if he ever saw a child solider would personal match down to his or her superiors and strike them down.


I don't see how those are in any way related. You can understand why a character would hold to shitty beliefs and still CALL THEM OUT as shitty beliefs. And honestly, I very much doubt he would object to child soldiers seeing how he has practically recruited the two elf boys into his army.
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Azmodeus



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:55 am Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:
They are criticizing it for NOT CALLING THAT SHIT OUT for the outdated, pathetic and backwards biases they are.


Uh, Joan (and by extension the show) did do just that. Or did you miss the part where she called him on not only insulting her but her fallen comrades as well?The only reason it didn't have more of an impact is because Toyohisa had no point of reference for what that comment meant and how it related to his comment. What else do you need, Joan getting a power boast and beating him back? Even if i agree that the fight was to short, there was no way in hell the Fire brand of the french army would stack up well in a one-on-one against someone who was a veteran on the frontlines of the Sengoku Jidai.
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Johan Eriksson 9003



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:23 am Reply with quote
Azmodeus wrote:

Uh, Joan (and by extension the show) did do just that. Or did you miss the part where she called him on not only insulting her but her fallen comrades as well?The only reason it didn't have more of an impact is because Toyohisa had no point of reference for what that comment meant and how it related to his comment. What else do you need, Joan getting a power boast and beating him back? Even if i agree that the fight was to short, there was no way in hell the Fire brand of the french army would stack up well in a one-on-one against someone who was a veteran on the frontlines of the Sengoku Jidai.


And then they immediately shut her up with a headbut and gave the final word to Toyohisa instead of GIVING her words some impact to counter his sexism. By doing so the show treats her indignation at being dicriminated against as unimportant and not worth listening to. I swear, it's like everyone thinks writing is something that just "happens" and not a series of decissions made by the writer. They COULD have written Toyohisa in a way that that he could respect a fellow warrior fighting for her country even if he hadn't heard of that country before. They COULD have written in one last attack from Joan that maybe wounds Toyohisa enough for him to at least question his own bias a little. It really isn't that hard to think of a number of things they could have done to at least acknowledge the flaws of our MC, but they still didn't do any of them.

Personally I find it far more unbelievable that a normal human could stack up well against someone with actual superhuman powers just because he has combat experience on the frontlines. Making that fight as short as it was is really just unimaginative writing. Heck, YOU had a pretty good scenario in mind for how this could have been done better.
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