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Answerman - Why Is Anime's Animation Style So Hard To Imitate?


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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1773
Location: South America
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
Jose Cruz wrote:
I never thought there was an "anime style". Or Spirited Away, Paprika and Ping Pong the Animation are the same style now? Well, the three all display some very impressive animation but each has its own style.


There isn't an anime style, but it's still incredibly easy for medium savvy people to tell if something is drawn in Japan or elsewhere due to things like technique and method. It's a bit like that obscenity law which states "I'll know it when I see it". Likewise, it's easy to tell when a show is trying to copy an anime style aesthetic despite the fact there is no real universal anime style. When it comes to the actual animation, it becomes even easier to tell than just using art alone because animation has its own variances.


I never actually understand when people claim something is copying "anime style" either. Like they use to claim with Avatar and Totally Spies. To me it doesn't look its trying to copy the Japanese style at all.

I actually think that the most anime-like Western animations I have watched are two movies: Waltz's with Bashir and Wrinkles. Waltz's with Bashir because of its realistic and detailed art and serious tone, Wrinkles because of its literaly quality and complexity ("maturity") in its writing.

I wouldn't think just copying the standard shounen jump art style makes it "anime like". It would just look fake. More like an ignorant attempt to copy something that does not exist which is "anime style".
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:33 pm Reply with quote
I think the term Sakuga has been corrupted to the point it doesn't sound like we really understand what we're talking about. Sakuga is just literally animation, and when most people throw the Sakuga in they're talking about the flashiest, action-packed kind, which is not wrong, but these aren't the only highlights Japanese animation has in comparison to Western animation.

Beautiful walk cycles, with a lot of weight and pleasant motion.
A dancing training sequence full of dyanmism (and this is not my favorite of Fujii).
Running and hair details
Background animation
Outstanding character animation (and direction, anyway)
There is only one person in all of Japan who can do this

Is this supposed to go against Western animation? No, I love Western animation, I like its special attention to character acting, expresiveness, and, just like anime, it also has a wide ranage of memorable and unique styles. I do prefer anime for how the artists are given more of a voice on a general level, and watching is what made me love animation overall, but it's due to differences, not because I think one is superior to the other, and I particularly like one influencing the other.

Avatar obviously is my favorite example as it combines a lot of Western consistency and attention to detail while also having sparks of strong, Eastern quirks, sometimes in the style, at others in the whole scene, creating a style of its own, similarly to works such as Redline.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:15 am Reply with quote
svines85 wrote:
And, I don't know, Kiza seemed like they were kind of disappointed with other (Western) adaptations of the "anime" inspired style........well, for myself, I've enjoyed and appreciated a number of those types of works. I personally think that's the best way to go.......not trying to totally "copy" the style, but taking whatever elements and incorporating them into your style to make something new.

But that's just me I guess Very Happy


Yep. Bringing the analogy back to food, that's how fusion cuisine gets made. And fusion cuisine is some of the best cuisine there is.

Paiprince wrote:
I don't know how these guys were able to create these imitations without mentally cringing themselves during and after the process. They must've been so full of themselves that they could be just like Japan. "Turning Japanese" they ain't.


That's because they're not you. (There has also never been any attempts to look authentically anime-like. Avatar and Korra are as far as it's ever gotten, but I think anyone smart enough to run a TV show is also smart enough to put their own spin on things.)

Selipse wrote:
Eh...
American animation makes it a point to be consistent throughout its run, thus maintaining a certain quality all the time. However, that also doesn't allow for the breadth of personality Japanese animators can have.


Different priorities. American entertainment (as a whole) is focused on immersion: You are supposed to forget you are watching something, reading something, or playing something and become totally engrossed in the story's world. A key part of that is consistency: Something that looks or moves noticeably different from the rest of the work will be jarring and will take the audience out of it.

It doesn't mean American works don't have thumbprints. Oh no, I learned that Hollywood is all about thumbprints and can make or break landing a job as a writer, producer, or director. Rather, the thumbprints are those of the creators and permeate the entire work. That's the core of the auteur theory, a method of making films popularized by the French New Wave back in the black-and-white era and is still the dominant approach to this day.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:00 am Reply with quote
In the past few years, there is also case of role reversal. That is, some anime that looks like it's trying to mimic a Cartoon Network-style of animation, notably "Panty & Stocking" which reminds me of "Powerpuff Girls".
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ParaChomp



Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:02 am Reply with quote
lys wrote:
E-conte (絵コンテ) - if you google that you should find a bunch of examples. I don't know much about the technical side of animation, so I'm not entirely sure how they differ from storyboards in other animation industries.
I get it now.

Japanese storyboards are based on shots and "camera" movement.


American storyboards are based on actions (including the simplest of them).


Never expected to see Naruto and Scooby-Doo in the same post. Are my choices weird?
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:25 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
It doesn't mean American works don't have thumbprints. Oh no, I learned that Hollywood is all about thumbprints and can make or break landing a job as a writer, producer, or director. Rather, the thumbprints are those of the creators and permeate the entire work. That's the core of the auteur theory, a method of making films popularized by the French New Wave back in the black-and-white era and is still the dominant approach to this day.


Certainly, whenever watching any film you'll always notice certain decisions in directing and framing that are very common and widespread. But it's usually more cumulative work covering personal and individual artistic voice. A lot of times Western animation will stick to "This is how it goes", but it's true that each show does have an unique "consistency", especially so in backgrounds and design, and especially so in the most climatic moments, Gravity Falls and Steven Universe (to cite recent examples) never have the same feel to them.

An episode (or even a scene) of a show looking different from the rest of them is certainly the exception, not the norm, and backwards in most Japanese animation, Dragon Ball Z, due how long it is, it's the perfect example of always changing depending on the animation directors, I think we have like 6 styles of Goku Super Saiyan.
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:53 am Reply with quote
There's a lot of hybrid stuff. Many Western shows have been animated overseas. Rankin Bass used a Japanese company for it's drawn animation. So there may be some unexpected influence.

It is annoying when people call stuff that was clearly made in West as "anime style" when it's not. Just because something uses good animation doesn't mean the animators were copying Japan. Reboot has been called anime-style but it was a completely Canadian production and effectively established the CG style that Pixar and other studios now use.

Although nowadays Western animators have been heavily influenced by anime so that will have some effect, but many of the same tools and techniques are used worldwide as well. Certain techniques are cost effective.

You'll also note that shows such as Avatar, Shaolin Showdown, Ninjago and Jackie Chan are based on Chinese folklore, not Japanese. There's an effort made not to make this stuff look like anime.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
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Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:14 pm Reply with quote
Topgunguy wrote:
The other way round has the same effect. Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt tries to look western and while it mimics it well it still has some anime-esque aesthetics to it that just can't escape a Japanese's hands. The big eyes, the limited motion, minimal blinking, the mouths flapping up and down with very little regard to how the mouth would be shaped on certain vowels and syllables and five fingers on each hand. American TV comedy animation has a weird thing for 4-fingers. What's up with that? I don't buy the whole 'bubbly features' excuse.



not quite. it was actually attempted by CN Japan when they try to do an anime version of powerpuff girls z, which unfortunately had really mixed results. then there was the 2011 remake of thundercats that was done by madhouse which didn't last as well. its pretty much a one sided conclusion here where there is only one result. companies should stick to what they know cause if its not broken, DONT FIX IT BY TRYING SOMETHING NEW! unfortunately wished hollywood would get that message and scrap the live action ghost in the shell movie before it turns into a massive mess and a half.
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:01 pm Reply with quote
MrOink, many of the 90s cartoons were done by JP studios under AMERICAN STANDARDS. Americans had higher standards. Bruce Timm HATED Sunrise and other JP companies for their sloppy animation. TMS was praised, but they were under American standards. If not, each episode of Batman TAS would only have 3300 drawings as opposed to 10,000+.

It's strange how Akira and Nemo are the only well animated anime from TMS; all their good work was mandated to them by Disney and Amblin.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:06 pm Reply with quote
Jose Cruz wrote:
I never actually understand when people claim something is copying "anime style" either. Like they use to claim with Avatar and Totally Spies. To me it doesn't look its trying to copy the Japanese style at all.
The creators admit they're influenced by anime. Avatar made no attempt at hiding its influences like Miyazaki and certain FLCL and Dead Leaves inspired episodes. If I remember correctly the guys behind Avatar forced the animators to watch FLCL and copy that kind of stuff. Generally these kind of shows use stereotypes like sweatdrops, chibis, inflated yelling heads, and etcetera. Totally Spies is French and they borrow from Japan a lot more of than America does and for a lot longer. That's not to stay anime is the only influence. Avatar also took from wuxia films and Totally Spies being based on American 1970s popculture like Charlie's Angels

Kadmos1 wrote:
In the past few years, there is also case of role reversal. That is, some anime that looks like it's trying to mimic a Cartoon Network-style of animation, notably "Panty & Stocking" which reminds me of "Powerpuff Girls".


Panty and Stocking is the only recent example I can think of of Japan aping America, and it was influenced more by Drawn Together

-Stuart Smith
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:02 pm Reply with quote
writerpatrick wrote:
It is annoying when people call stuff that was clearly made in West as "anime style" when it's not. Just because something uses good animation doesn't mean the animators were copying Japan. Reboot has been called anime-style but it was a completely Canadian production and effectively established the CG style that Pixar and other studios now use.


The phrase "anime style" is extremely vague and can vary tremendously between individuals, so much so as to be meaningless. That phrase is the scourge of all artists who draw and doodle in public where lots of young people hang out.

jr240483 wrote:
not quite. it was actually attempted by CN Japan when they try to do an anime version of powerpuff girls z, which unfortunately had really mixed results. then there was the 2011 remake of thundercats that was done by madhouse which didn't last as well. its pretty much a one sided conclusion here where there is only one result. companies should stick to what they know cause if its not broken, DONT FIX IT BY TRYING SOMETHING NEW! unfortunately wished hollywood would get that message and scrap the live action ghost in the shell movie before it turns into a massive mess and a half.


It's not that simple: Thundercats 2011 flopped in the ratings but was pretty well-received by those who watched it...at least until the writers went into a civil war and episodes became pretty inconsistent in writing. Remember that Madhouse also animated The Boondocks, which went on for four seasons and was ultimately cancelled because Aaron McGruder wanted to work on other projects.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the writing. No matter how it's animated, people aren't going to watch if they don't like its writing.

Valhern wrote:
Certainly, whenever watching any film you'll always notice certain decisions in directing and framing that are very common and widespread. But it's usually more cumulative work covering personal and individual artistic voice. A lot of times Western animation will stick to "This is how it goes", but it's true that each show does have an unique "consistency", especially so in backgrounds and design, and especially so in the most climatic moments, Gravity Falls and Steven Universe (to cite recent examples) never have the same feel to them.

An episode (or even a scene) of a show looking different from the rest of them is certainly the exception, not the norm, and backwards in most Japanese animation, Dragon Ball Z, due how long it is, it's the perfect example of always changing depending on the animation directors, I think we have like 6 styles of Goku Super Saiyan.


I noticed Adventure Time is the only high-profile American animated TV show to have episode-based thumbprints (which I believe is the proper definition of "sakuga"), and that's because weirdness is its gimmick. Well, there are also certain scenes in The Amazing World of Gumball. In both instances, though, the different animation style and character design are drastically different and call attention to themselves.

As far as individual creators go, I would say the most recognizable is Genndy Tartakovsky. His pacing, framing, fight choreography, and use of background objects are so distinctive, they can be identified in live action, like with Iron Man 2.

Something else to consider is that I'd guess both parts of the world have their audiences accustomed to whatever style of thumbprint they have. If an episode from a US animated TV show looks and moves slightly differently because someone else is in charge, people are going to complain about it, even kids, like what happened with the "candle" episodes of Animaniacs (where Steven Spielberg took the reins directly), which are by far the most divisive episodes of the series.
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StarfighterPegasus



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:31 am Reply with quote
Am suprised no one mentioned Ninja High School creator Ben Dunn who worked o Marvel's Mangaverse. I like his style it reminds me of 80s to early 90s style of anime
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:14 am Reply with quote
Tezuka, the guy that really established the anime style, was influenced by Walt Disney. So, Americans trying to mimic the Japanese is somewhat appropriate.
b
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:03 am Reply with quote
StarfighterPegasus wrote:
Am suprised no one mentioned Ninja High School creator Ben Dunn who worked o Marvel's Mangaverse. I like his style it reminds me of 80s to early 90s style of anime


In fact, some at the time accused NHS of reminding them of then cult-hit Urusei Yatsura a LITTLE TOO MUCH... Confused

But, of course, that was one of the only manga/anime comedies we knew back then, so, to borrow the Geico-ism, if you were going to fanboy-plagiarize anime, ripping off UY was....what you do.
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Topgunguy



Joined: 08 Dec 2015
Posts: 258
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:09 am Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
I'm curious about these American animators who seem to have a grudge against anime. Why? Is it the frame rate? I certainly can recall lots of anime sequences that "flow" just as smoothly as American ones (though I don't watch much American animation these days). Do they dislike the character designs? The lack of attention to mouth flaps? All these seem rather nit-picky to me as an outsider interested only in the aesthetics of the finished works.


American fascism + xenophobia.

"It's Japanese? Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders?! Get em outta here!! AMERICAN ALL THE WAY!!"

A-holes.
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