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This Week in Games - The Sudden Rise of Fanservice Games


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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 2681
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:58 am Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Thinking that there wouldn't be any outrage over a North American release of DOAX3 isn't a particularly well-grounded opinion.


Over the last say 5-6 years we've seen outrage over things like

- The ending to Mass Effect 3.
- Batman Arkham Asylum being released in an unoptimized state for PC.
- Nintendo releasing the 3DS with a region lock.
- Pretty much anything relating to Microsoft.
- Final Fantasy 14 being changed from it's original concept and having an all male party.
- Fire Emblem If having unimportant features removed from it's western version.
- The usual butthurt that crops up during the pre and post release of Smash Bros.
- Atlus consistently screwing over the European market.

Etc

I'm pretty sure that if DOAX3 had gotten released if would've gotten the same level of outrage Mass Effect 1's sex scene got from Fox News which is to say not much at all. And gamers in general not giving a damn.
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Exalted Incarnate



Joined: 21 Sep 2015
Posts: 279
Location: In the memory of time...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:40 am Reply with quote
Estelle the White Mage wrote:
I don't think there were enough fan service games released this year
My bank account still has money in it.


Nope, there is still too much.

spoiler[the fact that I see people talking about it is also too much in general.]
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 508
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:55 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if DOAX3 had gotten released if would've gotten the same level of outrage Mass Effect 1's sex scene got from Fox News which is to say not much at all. And gamers in general not giving a damn.


Nobody cares about FoxNews. We're talking about video game rags like Kotaku and Polygon which love to breed controversy for clicks. Remember when Nintentendo was the devil for not having homosexual marriage in Tomodachi Life, or the Dragon Crown outrage, or Rapelay? Funny you mention FF15 and Fire Emblem given the shit flung them. Fire Emblem was heavily censored because some Tumblr user made a big stink about "conversion therapy" which they made up. Cidney is also the new Quiet in terms of most misogynistic female character ever. You bet your buns DOAX3 would have created some nice juicy clickbait.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:18 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Ghostbusters 2016 bombed because of bad writing.
Ghostbusters bombed because the marketing and the "talent" behind the film made it their job to insult the fanbase and potential audience they might have had, after they realized nobody liked what they saw in the first trailer. It was the movie equivalent of what happened with that DmC game, except you can't spin a convenient ''they're x-phobic!" narrative around that one because it concerned a franchise with a straight male MC.
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:56 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, and you can't be shamed into watching something. Even if the film was just, by all accounts, mediocre, neither good nor bad, just average, you have already turned it into a hot button political issue, when people would just rather watch a comedy to enjoy themselves. If you want to think deeply about a movie, watch Silence.

I am still of the belief that the market provides what people want so long as no laws are being broken. My complete lack of faith in modern society aside, that is the one thing I can trust. If there's a demand for a story, or a game, or whatnot, then the market will provide it. Tumblirinas and other idiots who demand everything be covered and need everything to have an equal representation of things that are in such a minority 95% of people don't care are too busy yelling at content providers rather than making their own materials.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 2681
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:11 pm Reply with quote
Lord Oink wrote:
Nobody cares about FoxNews. We're talking about video game rags like Kotaku and Polygon which love to breed controversy for clicks.


Which people can easily ignore.

Lord Oink wrote:

Remember when Nintentendo was the devil for not having homosexual marriage in Tomodachi Life,


Not really

Lord Oink wrote:
or the Dragon Crown outrage,


No.

Lord Oink wrote:
or Rapelay?


Yes but entirely pointless by virtue of the fact the game was never localized for the western market. And this outrage came about years after the game was released.

Lord Oink wrote:
Fire Emblem was heavily censored


I didn't know that removing an optional touching minigame and changing some dialog is the same thing as turning blood into another color or something similar.


Lord Oink wrote:
because some Tumblr user made a big stink about "conversion therapy" which they made up.


Soliel was written as a lipstick lesbian so her S support with Corrin (along with all her other S-supports) in the localization was pretty dumb either way


Lord Oink wrote:
You bet your buns DOAX3 would have created some nice juicy clickbait.


That wouldn't have stopped people from buying a sub-par game that even the people who've played it wouldn't label as a killer app.
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Errinundra
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Joined: 14 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:58 am Reply with quote
Interesting conversation. Please remember to keep on topic. American movies may be straying just a little from the straight and narrow of fanservice in Japanese games.
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SquadmemberRitsu



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1275
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:39 am Reply with quote
Honestly that whole 'outrage' over Xenoblade Chronicles X was just the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Like... boohoo they replaced a 13 year old's skimpy bikini with a slightly less skimpy bikini. It had zero effect on the gameplay and it looked like crap anyway so why were people even mad? Did they just not like the idea of 'censorship'?

I remember Cassandra Lee Morris, Lin's voice actor, defended the decision and urged people to 'focus on Lin's character and abilities rather than her outfit'. Of course, people ignored her and still ended up focusing on her outfit. As long as no one gets hurt there's nothing wrong with being a bit perverted. I think most of us are to some degree. But for God's sake don't try to paint your desire to lust after anime girls as this big war about ethics.




As for the main topic I don't object to the idea of fanservice games coming abroad. I had a lot of fun playing Akiba's Trip and Gal Gun is fun in a kind of schlocky way. But I feel like this idea of the west pushing back against pervy games is incredibly exaggerated. I mean, it's not like there ever was this 'evil essjaydoubleyoo' cult trying to take your games away. People might criticise a game with objectionable content, but it's the publishers who ultimately decide whether or not they want to sell the game uncensored.

People weren't happy about Quiet in MGSV, but the game still sold pretty damn well despite no censorship whatsoever right? Neptunia games are all pretty pervy but they still keep localising them right? Senran Kagura, Akiba's Trip, Gal Gun, need I go on? They all got through entirely uncensored. Someone from PQube actually said in an interview that the process of getting Gal Gun into the west was 'surprisingly easy'.

All these games that did get censored were a result of publishers getting cold feet. Nintendo of America felt uncomfortable about Lin's Bikini so they took it upon themselves to remove it before release. The same goes for the removed features in the Fire Emblem games. Whether Koei Tecmo were trying to sell their piece of crap game through genius marketing tactics or they were just thin skinned cowards who couldn't take the heat, they decided to not give us DOAX3. The common thread in all these cases and many more? It was entirely the publisher's decision. No 'evil feminist cult' involvement whatsoever.

I definitely agree that it's probably a result of this movement that these games ended up getting an audience. Personally I think the idea of buying ecchi games to 'stick it to the man' is a bit silly but I ain't gonna judge if you're into that stuff.
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Random Name



Joined: 24 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:52 am Reply with quote
I don't get it why so much salt for a click bait article?
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 3502
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:56 pm Reply with quote
I understand that some people don't like fan service, and have no problem with censorship, since it is removing stuff they don't like. So that is why they say things like, it was no big deal, technically it is not censorship, or it doesn't affect game play. All just excuses to justify the censorship, since the censorship is taking away the stuff they don't like. After all, censorship is okay if the stuff being removed is the things that you don't like.

But there are people that don't like censorship, who don't like being told what they can or cannot watch. It is like the book burnings of old, just updated for the modern age. For us it is a big deal.

Sure there is no cult or illuminati going after fan service, but there is this narrative in the West that has no problem trying to control content and demonizing those that stand in their way or against them.
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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:27 pm Reply with quote
It really is disheartening that there are people out there that are okay with censorship when it comes to material they don't like. Sad Yes, I have a few fanservice titles here and there that I dislike or don't care for, but you'll never see myself calling for the censoring of them. I just let those people that enjoy those titles enjoy them to the fullest in peace while I spend my time enjoying the titles that I do like.
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stilldemented



Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:00 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
But I feel like this idea of the west pushing back against pervy games is incredibly exaggerated. I mean, it's not like there ever was this 'evil essjaydoubleyoo' cult trying to take your games away. People might criticise a game with objectionable content, but it's the publishers who ultimately decide whether or not they want to sell the game uncensored.


Sounds like the mindset with this is the old adage in effect. "Give an Inch, They'll Take a Mile."

Gamers have had an irksome history of dealing with misrepresentation in the media and in their personal lives. They often feel stigmatized for being desensitized to violence or not getting outside or being social enough. Passive-aggressive insinuations about the general character of anyone who would identify themselves as otaku/gamers are common within political affiliates.

These kinds of messages were often marketed toward parents back in the days, but I figure the big thing that has changed since then and now is that gamers are more in tune to the world than ever before. A lot of them grew up, and they aren't as appreciative of all the politically-charged degradation.

Turns out people don't really like it when they are looked down upon, and are savvy enough to recognize when someone has a bone to pick with them. They recognize the difference between 'It's just business.' and 'this is personal' inherently.

Fact of the matter is that we all identify and attach ourselves to our media to a certain degree. People may not be talking to you, but they are talking at you. And as much as 'if you don't like it, don't read it' seems like worthwhile advice, things such as youtube, twitter, and social media in general makes it impossible to ignore or escape. Even if you want to and actively attempt to do so...you'll still catch some of it...and if you catch enough of it eventually you're going to want to say something.

There's something of a vicious cycle at play when it comes to the effect of clickbait and its influence on the feminism vs. gamergate social war. These two groups both tend to see the best of their group and all the worst in one another. Mainly because that's just sort of how media functions at the moment. Gamers are looking up gamer videos when they check their sidebar and see some video about how some crazed advocate said something extraordinarily insensitive. Feminists are looking up their videos and they see the same thing...and the comment sections of both of these groups tend to add fuel to the flame...because someone got some fact wrong or said something stupid and people are inclined to correct it...which gets people defensive...which gets people upset...which gets people angry. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Confused

Stuff like that actually inadvertently stokes the ego. "Is everyone stupid except me? Am I crazy? What is going on???" Or at least that's my working hypothesis for why you see a lot more consideration for the self and lessening interest in others.

At any rate, it's definitely an interesting time to be living. I tried to keep this centered around gaming but this subject just really broadens out into perpetual discussion about media, politics, religion/ideology, etc. ...so basically the same old hats that have gotten people riled at one another since higher thinking first developed. haha. Razz
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:59 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
Honestly that whole 'outrage' over Xenoblade Chronicles X was just the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Like... boohoo they replaced a 13 year old's skimpy bikini with a slightly less skimpy bikini. It had zero effect on the gameplay and it looked like crap anyway so why were people even mad? Did they just not like the idea of 'censorship'?


Fro what I'm seeing on here, my impression is that there are a lot of people here who have an absolute view of censorship being bad. (With the possible exception of self-censorship.)

Maybe there will be a time when absolutely nothing has to be censored and content ratings and warnings will take care of it all. But today is not that time, and society is not ready for that.

SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
All these games that did get censored were a result of publishers getting cold feet. Nintendo of America felt uncomfortable about Lin's Bikini so they took it upon themselves to remove it before release. The same goes for the removed features in the Fire Emblem games. Whether Koei Tecmo were trying to sell their piece of crap game through genius marketing tactics or they were just thin skinned cowards who couldn't take the heat, they decided to not give us DOAX3. The common thread in all these cases and many more? It was entirely the publisher's decision. No 'evil feminist cult' involvement whatsoever.

I definitely agree that it's probably a result of this movement that these games ended up getting an audience. Personally I think the idea of buying ecchi games to 'stick it to the man' is a bit silly but I ain't gonna judge if you're into that stuff.


I don't think it's cold feet as much as it is they felt they could sell the games better were they removed or modified. That is, money is the main factor. In particular with Nintendo, outside of Japan it has the reputation of being the Disney of video game companies, producing high-quality and family-friendly games, though unlike Disney, it's not in a position to create a Touchstone or Miramax analogue as no one would fall for it. In any case, the censored Fire Emblem Fates, if we're to call it censored, sold better than any previous Fire Emblem game, and I have no doubt this is partially because of parents buying these games for their kids because the parents trust the Nintendo brand. (A possible compromise is to release an edited version and a complete version, but that will run the problems of said parents not knowing which is which or why one is edited, and kids getting angry they received what they feel is an incomplete version.)

I'd say the same is true for DOAX3: Koei-Tecmo withdrew the game but kept English-language subtitles, I believe, because they feel the game is so niche, so fringe, as to be unprofitable in the Anglosphere, with the English translation there because they knew whatever few people were buying them would be dedicated enough to import them. (DOAX2 was not exactly a top seller either, and if I recall correctly, barely broke even, meaning Koei-Tecmo's American and European branches could use their time and resources more efficiently by choosing other games to bring over that they feel are more profitable, like the Hyrule Warriors games.)

stilldemented wrote:
Gamers have had an irksome history of dealing with misrepresentation in the media and in their personal lives. They often feel stigmatized for being desensitized to violence or not getting outside or being social enough. Passive-aggressive insinuations about the general character of anyone who would identify themselves as otaku/gamers are common within political circles.

These kinds of messages were often marketed toward parents back in the days, but I figure the big thing that has changed since then and now is that gamers are more in tune to the world than ever before. A lot of them grew up, and they aren't as appreciative of all the politically-charged degradation.


Maybe it's because I find them mainly online, but I'm seeing an increasing amount of monomania among video gaming--that is, they're not interested in very many things that aren't video games. There's also this shunning of the world at large, and a lot of cynicism in them, but I think that's also the result of decades of social marginalization. (I see the same thing with anime fans.)

stilldemented wrote:
There's something of a vicious cycle at play when it comes to the effect of clickbait and its influence on the feminism vs. gamergate social war. These two groups both tend to see the best of their group and all the worst in one another. Mainly because that's just sort of how media functions at the moment. Gamers are looking up gamer videos when they check their sidebar and see some video about how some crazed advocate said something extraordinarily insensitive. Feminists are looking up their videos and they see the same thing...and the comment sections of both of these groups tend to add fuel to the flame...because someone got some fact wrong or said something stupid and people are inclined to correct it...which gets people defensive...which gets people upset...which gets people angry. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Confused

Stuff like that actually inadvertently stokes the ego. "Is everyone stupid except me? Am I crazy? What is going on???" Or at least that's my working hypothesis for why you see a lot more consideration for the self and lessening interest in others.

At any rate, it's definitely an interesting time to be living. I tried to keep this centered around gaming but this subject just really broadens out into perpetual discussion about media, politics, religion/ideology, etc. ...so basically the same old hats that have gotten people riled at one another since higher thinking first developed. haha. Razz


In addition, social media has created echo chambers on both sides, which intensify people's opinions and cause them to be more extreme. People, as social animals, love finding and hearing from people with opinions in common, and said social media circles are an easy way for that. The thing is that they can stay huddled within that and become extremists in the process, then come back out into the real world and get shocked.

You didn't see this quite so much during the days when the only TV stations were CBS, NBC, ABC, and Dumont. You had your own opinions and tastes, but you had to compromise because you were limited to what you could expose yourself to. You no longer have to compromise, and it's led to a compromises-mean-you're-weak culture that has seeped everywhere.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:09 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
Did they just not like the idea of 'censorship'?
Uhhh yeah that's exactly right. Nobody likes censorship, except the censors themselves of course.

SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
It was entirely the publisher's decision. No 'evil feminist cult' involvement whatsoever.
Now ask yourself WHY did they choose to censor their own content that is permissible in eastern island nations.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:10 pm Reply with quote
SquadmemberRitsu wrote:
Honestly that whole 'outrage' over Xenoblade Chronicles X was just the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Like... boohoo they replaced a 13 year old's skimpy bikini with a slightly less skimpy bikini. It had zero effect on the gameplay and it looked like crap anyway so why were people even mad? Did they just not like the idea of 'censorship'?

I remember Cassandra Lee Morris, Lin's voice actor, defended the decision and urged people to 'focus on Lin's character and abilities rather than her outfit'. Of course, people ignored her and still ended up focusing on her outfit. As long as no one gets hurt there's nothing wrong with being a bit perverted. I think most of us are to some degree. But for God's sake don't try to paint your desire to lust after anime girls as this big war about ethics.


Removal of content is all well and good until it happens to something you like. Imagine if they censored out a transgender or homosexual character, which still happens to this day in certain American versions of things. Some might find that discriminatory, but it's not a big deal since It doesn't affect gameplay or the story, so it's perfectly fine. Somehow, those people might not think that way.

But the bigger problem about censorship is it paints a false narrative. For more casual players who aren't big fans of the series, it might not matter, but when other material like manga/anime adaptions, figures, TCG, doujinshi/fanart depict it as it really is, it creates inconsistancies. It's a false narrative that doesn't exist anywhere but the kid friendly version because they can't handle certain subjects. For example, Soleil is not gay in Japan, so she can't marry female units. So no matter what the English version says about her sexuality, she still can't marry female units. The only thing they could do was completely rewrite the S supports and removed all references to love or marriage with guys.

BadNewsBlues wrote:
I didn't know that removing an optional touching minigame and changing some dialog is the same thing as turning blood into another color or something similar.
I think you're not fully aware of what was changed in the localization. In addition to the head patting, they removed swimsuits and other cosmetic costumes, removed some support conversations entirely, and completely rewrote many others in addition to changing many character personalities and interactions.

-Stuart Smith
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