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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:45 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
The show has said time and again that their love is above any tangible label. Yuuri says the feeling is "more complex than romantic love"


Again, these are euphemisms that we have seen countless times in other anime before - homosexual relationships are defined as not real love but something "beyond love." In this way, normal human loving intimacy and companionship are removed from the picture and something vaguely mystical and otherworldly is substituted in. Its essentially like the character going out into the desert on a spirit quest, finding their spirit animal and bonding with it. That's the level of depth that anime treats these kinds of relationships with. Yea you might be bonded with your spirit coyote bro forever, but you're sure as he'll not going to marry him.But maybe he'll provide inspiration for you to do your best at something.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Sailor Moon Crystal was explicit enough about the LGBTQ content that the series was censored and then abruptly cancelled in Portugal over it. The point remains Naoko Takuchi has been explicit that Haruka and Michiru are gay for over two decades now yet Kubo-sensei can't bring herself to the use the g word but Naoko's affirmative statements about Haruka and Michiru's relationship don't seem to be hurting Sailor Moon's popularity in any way. And not just Haruka and Michiru but the 90s anime even added in more gay characters with Zoisite and Kunzite. And I always had heard before that most people in Japan were fine with LGBTQ content on TV even if they weren't in real life because it was as entertainment? I'm not disputing the blogger's experiences, and I think there's also a certain degree of homophobia on the part of some fans attempts to deny any gay themes are going on in YOI. But I just find Kubo's ambiguous and seemingly inability to use the word gay to be a bit frustrating when other creators like Naoko Takeuchi, CLAMP, and Ikuhara, have no issues being much more daring about it. It just feels like they're trying to eat their cake and have it too by wanting to appease homophobes but also want to win over fujoshi fangirls to make money off of body pillows and Nendoroids.
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katscradle



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:15 pm Reply with quote
It was great to listen to everybody in this podcast. Erica mentioned Manga Erotics F and I miss that magazine a lot. Some of the most memorable works for me from there are ones with LGBTQ representation. At least the comic of Sweet Blue Flowers is finally getting the treatment it deserves in English.



CCTakato wrote:
Even like two decades later, Cardcaptor Sakura still has some of the most positive portrayals of LGBTQ characters in anime that I've seen.


I love magical girl shows but, CCS is the one that has a special place in my heart for its presentation of different sorts of relationships. I’m bi and unfortunately was raised in a religion that has many issues with LGBTQ people. Religious authorities and members also took a dim view of Japanese animation and comics as an appropriate form of recreation or profession. However, it was hard to not come across a lot of the girl’s comics and animations like CCS when I was younger. Tomoyo was a character that resonated for me but, also hilariously part of what inspired me to go to school for fashion design. Her support of Sakura with the battle costumes because you need special clothes when you’re doing special things was when I started seeing clothes as armor. I thought I want to create armor for myself and others for the challenges they face every day.

I get other parents asking me about Japanese comics or animation for their younger children, sometimes in regard to one of CLAMP’s titles. CCS is still one of the top titles I recommend for kids because it presents different family situations and love. (Even though it does have a whopping three student/teacher relationships.) I hope through every character the series is helpful for young people and adults alike in thinking about and addressing real life.


CCTakato wrote:
Most CLAMP works in general always seem to include at least one gay couple and it's never portrayed as a huge deal or in a fetisishized way.


Not sure if you mean most of their works don’t play to fetishes, or that CLAMP never does. But I do remember squealing fangirls or attitudes of such pop up in things like Tokyo Babylon and Legal Drug/Drug & Drop to name a couple. Then there is Miyuki-chan in Wonderland which doesn't have couples but, is a bunch of comedic fanservice and sexy character designs using all females because it would be too creepy otherwise.Rolling Eyes (I still enjoyed all of those titles though.)
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:20 pm Reply with quote
@ChibiKangaroo: Victor literally said they are engaged to be married though? Still no word on why this statement "doesn't count".

@CCTakato Kubo also tweeted sometime halfway through the show's run that "in the world of Yuri on Ice, no one would be discriminated regardless of who they love", which seems as much of a statement of intent as one can expect. Not to mention how Victor's appearance has been inspired by not one, not two, but three different openly gay public figures

Using Crystal's censoring as proof of it being "more" LGBT than Yuri on Ice is not really an argument unless Yuri on Ice has also aired in Portugal without getting censored (and my guess is that, even if it ever made it on air, it would get certainly censored. Just look at the bath scenes in episode 4). Not to mention the kind of conservative groups that do this kind of thing are quick to censor just about anything they deem even remotely inappropriate. Of course a woman kissing another woman would set those people off. Doesn't make it a "better" or "not baity" LGBT representation, especially given how absolutely nonexistent (beyond one or two loose scenes) the relationship between Haruka and Michiru is.

I'm a fan of CLAMP's works but have they explicitly used the word "gay" for any of their characters? (I honestly don't know and am curious about it) I wouldn't say Touya and Yukito are much more explicit in their love than Victor and Yuuri. Yukito calls Touya "his most important person", Yuuri says Victor is "the first person he wants to hold on to". And there's Fai and Kurogane who are notoriously more ambiguous imho.

Kubo seems to be doing some backpedaling in that particular interview, but does that automatically negate everything else she's said in other -past and recent- interviews? Does that invalidate what is evident within the show itself, especially knowing that Yamamoto has no qualms in portraying homosexuality in her work? Would it be great if she said "yes they're gay"? Sure. Does her not doing it make them no-homo, 100% hetero, completely platonic bros and best friends? No it doesn't. Queer people all over the world feel happy and represented by the series, so why the need to undermine what it's done by claiming it's "not good enough"
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8024
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:27 pm Reply with quote
Once again I see this topic and once again I see or hear no mention of Kanamemo. While the show isn't some ideal for LGBTQ issues (it certainly has a predatory rapist-esque character) it is one of the only shows which depicts a same-sex relationship without any big overreaction or making some huge deal of it. Yume and Yuuki are both in their 20s, are near-complete opposites of eachother personality-wise and yet obviously care deeply for eachother, kiss, and generally act like young lovers act.

So it disappoints me that even amongst people who obviously care very deeply about these issues I'm pretty much always the first (and only) person to ever bring this show up. I'd certainly love to see more relationships like Yume and Yuuki in anime.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:42 pm Reply with quote
katscradle wrote:


Not sure if you mean most of their works don’t play to fetishes, or that CLAMP never does. But I do remember squealing fangirls or attitudes of such pop up in things like Tokyo Babylon and Legal Drug/Drug & Drop to name a couple. Then there is Miyuki-chan in Wonderland which doesn't have couples but, is a bunch of comedic fanservice and sexy character designs using all females because it would be too creepy otherwise.Rolling Eyes (I still enjoyed all of those titles though.)
I still need to read Tokyo Babylon sometime and even back in my hardcore CLAMP days, I avoided Miyuki-chan like the plague due to the fanservice. But one of my all time favorite CLAMP manga is still Wish, which is seriously not appreciated enough. One of my favorite scenes in that manga is when this guy refers to Kohaku as a woman and theysay they're not a woman. The guy apologizes and says they've never seen a man so beautiful before and Kohaku said they're not a man either. When the guy asks Kohaku for clarification of their gender, Kohaku just says they're an angel. I just love that scene because it's never made a big deal out of and it's presented in such a sweet and innocent way and the guy never comes across as rude to Kohaku for it. Though it's a shame Tokyopop tried to tone down the gender fluid aspects of Kohaku in the English release, but Wish is still one of my favorite CLAMP titles and I still have my copies of the Tokyopop manga, though I wish it could get a new release with a more accurate translation.

Quote:
I'm a fan of CLAMP's works but have they explicitly used the word "gay" for any of their characters? (I honestly don't know and am curious about it) I wouldn't say Touya and Yukito are much more explicit in their love than Victor and Yuuri. Yukito calls Touya "his most important person", Yuuri says Victor is "the first person he wants to hold on to". And there's Fai and Kurogane who are notoriously more ambiguous imho.
I haven't read the manga in a long time to remember how it went, but in the anime it was always clear that when spoiler[Sakura was rejected by Yukito, he was doing so because he loved Touya as they talk about him not being her true love and Sakura bluntly asks Yukito if Touya is the one that he loves. Then in Tsubasa you have scenes where Touya and Yukito have parallel conversations to Saklura and Syaoran about not using keigo when they're in private and they're obviously speaking about each other as lovers.]So CLAMP doesn't use the word gay but CCS is very up front and explicit with characters like Tomoyo and Syaoran having same sex attractions.

Quote:
Kubo seems to be doing some backpedaling in that particular interview, but does that automatically negate everything else she's said in other -past and recent- interviews? Does that invalidate what is evident within the show itself, especially knowing that Yamamoto has no qualms in portraying homosexuality in her work? Would it be great if she said "yes they're gay"? Sure. Does her not doing it make them no-homo, 100% hetero, completely platonic bros and best friends? No it doesn't
it doesn't invalidate everything completely, no, but someone quoted a blogger earlier who made the argument that YOI is taking this ambiguous approach to avoid offending homophobic viewers in Japan. If that's their reason for this approach, it's certainly understandable and I can sympathize, but should it really get so much praise from Western fans for putting the concerns of homophobes over the concerns of actual LGBTQ people? Frankly to me, that almost makes it worse if they're writing it this way to avoid offending people than it if it was just a creative decision.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quote
^

And given what CrowLia is claiming about all of the innuendo, it seems stupid to backpedal to appease homophobes. I just think that if the characters are gay, they ought to make it clear and make the show great with that being present. That wold be an affirming story, not a "will they or won't they" interpretive dance.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:41 pm Reply with quote
So that this thread doesn't turn into one big YOI rant, on the subject of negative LGBTQ tropes you see other anime fans complain about, I have a lot of mixed reactions to the way anime fandoms seems to have this obsession of complaining about crossdressing characters in anime. Like it's one thing to complain about it if you're making a legitimate critique about the way crossdressers are portrayed in anime is stereotyping and sensationalizing real life crossdressers. But I often feel like the way a lot of anime fans complain about crossdressing characters is a bit transphobic. Like it's not they object because of how it's portrayed but it often feels like a lot of anime fandom is disgusted by the mere presence of crossdressing characters. I especially hate it when anime fans use the t word to describe crossdressing characters as they seem to be implying they think trans people and crossdressers all have sinister motives and are trying to entrap cisgender people. I just think anime fandom, especially the straight guys who seem to complain the most about this, need to calm down and stop acting like your favorite moe anime is ruined because there's a crossdresser in it.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Kikimani wrote:
I find these kind of arguments to be a real cop out and a disservice to the Japanese audience that it is intended to defend or represent. Wanting to see more complex, fully-realised characters of any kind of gender identity or sexual orientation is not the sole purview of USians. Surely, there are Japanese LGBT audiences and surely they, or any other kind of Japanese viewer, enjoys a range of quality entertainment, and their idea of quality surely includes this "round hole" of wanting characters that they can relate to. That this may not yet be a popular offering is not real indication of whether they want it or not.


I didn't say people wanting representation of their own groups in anime was bad, just that they tend to look in the wrong places. They almost always go for mainstream series which are targeting men and women who want to see cute guys and girls together. There's some seinen and josei manga that goes into what they want, but its much more niche and they rarely get anime adaptions. If people want to see something about transgender issues they should look at something like Wandering Son, not whatever popular anime has a gender swapping character like Kampfer where its designed to be a fetish or comedic. Same with "trap" characters like Hideyoshi. Maybe because niche josei and seinen manga isn't as widely available in the west so mainstream stuff is all they can consume.

CCTakato wrote:
This is an interesting point to bring up and I was just thinking about the media watchdog groups in Japan that complain about Gintma and Yokai Watch every month or something that would probably go into fits if it was more racey. I don't expect them to show like a wedding or something (even though I saw official YOI art on Twitter depicting Viktor & Yuri in wedding suit type outfits) but a simple "I love you" statement from Viktor and Yuri would be a big step up for me than what they've been doing. But my main issue with this blogger's argument was this same past year that Yuri On Ice aired, we had Sailor Moon Crystal season three airing on Japanese TV. Sailor Moon Crystal very explicitly showed Haruka kissing Usagi on the lips and there was an implied scene of Haruka and Michiru cuddling on their bedside with Haruka wearing her shirt unbuttoned that strongly implied they just had sex.


I don't follow the BPO beyond What ANN reports but if those are all that people complained about then they missed a lot more sexual stuff in Yokai Watch and Gintama. Either way, same-sex kissing is not banned on Japanese television, even among kids shows. That's more of an issue with American television where the most they seem to be able to get away with is a peck on the cheek from what I've seen.

-Stuart Smith
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Brakus



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:59 pm Reply with quote
I for one am EXTREMELY happy that you called out One-Punch Man for its depiction of Puri Puri Prisoner. I liked the character, but I didn't like that they gave him a sterotypical okama depiction, especially with the five-o-clock shadow on him. This on top of the supposed prison rape angle with him liking men. They toned it down just a little in the English dub, but I would have thought Mike McFarland (ADR script writer) and Chris Cason (ADR director) realized how almost offensively stereotypical Puri Puri Prisoner's depiction was in the Japanese version.

I am also very happy that My Brother's Husband is going to be published legally in English this year. It's just amazing that a manga-ka as revered in the bara/gei comi world is able to produce a terrific work that's more than just slice-of-life. I'm also happy that some bara manga has been translated into English as well (although we may never see the doujinshi they've made using actual anime charaters officially translated, because reasons).
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1902
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:49 pm Reply with quote
When you've been watching anime since the 80's you tend to come across many different types of characters. People that are into and would seek out anime were usually tolerant to the lifestyles within the shows.

I would think its more of the mainstream reaction to any LGBT sensitive material in anime that you would not want to hear a reaction to. As an anncast follower you need not to shy away from talking about any content. I hope there will be more to discuss in the future.

I've been a collector of anime since the LD days as well, met a ton of cool collectors on the journey to collect everything I could. I used to not even think twice about characters like Puni Puni prisoner but after hearing all of the discussions on anncast it makes my eyes roll when these characters are done in poor taste like that. It's too bad there is so much of it.

I haven't watched more than an episode of yuri on Ice because besides the animation, it doesn't offer me anything to latch onto. Its great that they are making anime that has found a newer audience. We need different shows. If Yuri on Ice is where we are headed so be it.

Boku no Pico was made by the guy that did the Goldenboy series. It's too bad ANN doesn't talk more of hentai. There are some really good series out there where the only place they can get their story told is through funding of the lowest methods.

Great episode, its cool to have so many chime in.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:01 am Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:


I didn't say people wanting representation of their own groups in anime was bad, just that they tend to look in the wrong places. They almost always go for mainstream series which are targeting men and women who want to see cute guys and girls together. There's some seinen and josei manga that goes into what they want, but its much more niche and they rarely get anime adaptions. If people want to see something about transgender issues they should look at something like Wandering Son, not whatever popular anime has a gender swapping character like Kampfer where its designed to be a fetish or comedic. Same with "trap" characters like Hideyoshi. Maybe because niche josei and seinen manga isn't as widely available in the west so mainstream stuff is all they can consume.

-Stuart Smith
I don't understand this line of reasoning that's because this is the way it's always been done that LGBTQ anime fans should never demand for it to be better and have our voices be heard. Almost every other form of genre nerd fiction like Western comics and science fiction and fantasy novels have no problems being inclusive of LGBTQ characters though they might not always be perfect at it. Anime and video games still seem to be the only LGBTQ characters in genre fiction are still mostly ignored in its mainstream titles. The solution is not to give up and accept the current climate as inevitable. What fans must do is keep supporting these shows like YOI and Free, as imperfect as they might be, to let the industry know we want more. There also needs to be more diverse voices in the anime industry like more women directors and actual queer voices consulted in the creation of these anime. It's not going to be easy to change things but giving up and accepting it as inevitable because straight people say that's how it's always been is not the answer.
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darkchibi07



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 5076
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:15 am Reply with quote
Man, all this "ambiguity" discussion reminded me how Euphonium fans dealt with Kumiko's and Reina's relationship.


BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:

Given the relative lack of commercial success for Yurikuma Arashi, Mikagura School Suite, and Flip Flappers, I can't help but be discouraged about the chances of ambitious yuri anime in the near future.

In terms of disc sales, we've really only had two "blockbuster" yuri anime in the 21st century: Maria-sama ga Miteru and YuruYuri (I guess you could count My-Hime too, depending on how you look at it). It's hard to imagine that Citrus or Trap will be as successful as either of these, but you never know.


I'm feeling a bit more confident with the Citrus and Netsuzou Trap anime considering there is an existing, sizable fanbase for the original manga. Citrus especially is lasting on par with Yuru Yuri. I just hope there's a good staff and animation studio involved in those adaptations.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:59 am Reply with quote
I see someone brought up the Prisoner guy from One Punch Man. Surprised he hasn't been mentioned before, cause yeah, his portrayal is a bit cringe-worthy. But then the whole show is a joke/parody of superheroes, so it kinda makes sense. Anyway, I've already shipped him with the cute ninja guy. Smile
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raich8



Joined: 25 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:30 am Reply with quote
Takako Shimura is a great mangaka in terms of LGBT representation. She pretty unabashedly shows both same-sex attraction and uses the actual jargon. Aoi Hana is to this day the only anime I've seen where a character says the word "bisexual". Her newer work, Wagamama Chie-chan, has a teenage bi girl as the protagonist and the exploration of her sexuality is handled really naturally and well.

On another note, it seems like BL manga at least is moving away from the "I don't love guys, I only love you!!" dodge, and having at least one half of the couple just straight up identify as gay. Seems like progress.
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