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katscradle



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:37 pm Reply with quote
CCTakato wrote:
But one of my all time favorite CLAMP manga is still Wish, which is seriously not appreciated enough. One of my favorite scenes in that manga is when this guy refers to Kohaku as a woman and theysay they're not a woman. The guy apologizes and says they've never seen a man so beautiful before and Kohaku said they're not a man either. When the guy asks Kohaku for clarification of their gender, Kohaku just says they're an angel. I just love that scene because it's never made a big deal out of and it's presented in such a sweet and innocent way and the guy never comes across as rude to Kohaku for it. Though it's a shame Tokyopop tried to tone down the gender fluid aspects of Kohaku in the English release, but Wish is still one of my favorite CLAMP titles and I still have my copies of the Tokyopop manga, though I wish it could get a new release with a more accurate translation.


Oh, yes Wish is a nice one. I had a friend when I was a teenager that really liked it too because of Kohaku. I believe a new English version has been solicited by Darkhorse for this year.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4215
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:50 pm Reply with quote
CCTakato wrote:
I don't understand this line of reasoning that's because this is the way it's always been done that LGBTQ anime fans should never demand for it to be better and have our voices be heard. Almost every other form of genre nerd fiction like Western comics and science fiction and fantasy novels have no problems being inclusive of LGBTQ characters though they might not always be perfect at it. Anime and video games still seem to be the only LGBTQ characters in genre fiction are still mostly ignored in its mainstream titles. The solution is not to give up and accept the current climate as inevitable. What fans must do is keep supporting these shows like YOI and Free, as imperfect as they might be, to let the industry know we want more. There also needs to be more diverse voices in the anime industry like more women directors and actual queer voices consulted in the creation of these anime. It's not going to be easy to change things but giving up and accepting it as inevitable because straight people say that's how it's always been is not the answer.


Stuart Smith never said that. He just said you are looking at the wrong shows for representation. Target the shows and manga that best represent what you want.

If you want more of the stuff you like, then buy, buy, buy. Do what the Idol fan boys do in Japan and buy several copies of the shows you like. Money has a much louder voice than anything on the internet.

Anime is made for Japanese audiences, specifically the fans that keep the whole thing afloat. They are not driven by American cultural imperatives.
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yuricon



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 115
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Once again I see this topic and once again I see or hear no mention of Kanamemo. While the show isn't some ideal for LGBTQ issues (it certainly has a predatory rapist-esque character) it is one of the only shows which depicts a same-sex relationship without any big overreaction or making some huge deal of it. Yume and Yuuki are both in their 20s, are near-complete opposites of eachother personality-wise and yet obviously care deeply for eachother, kiss, and generally act like young lovers act.

So it disappoints me that even amongst people who obviously care very deeply about these issues I'm pretty much always the first (and only) person to ever bring this show up. I'd certainly love to see more relationships like Yume and Yuuki in anime.


I'll agree that Kanamemo had a nice openly lesbian couple, but, to be honest, so do many dozens of series that few-to-no people know. There were a lot of reasons why Kanamemo disappeared into oblivion after it aired and most of them are valid. Anime smile

I'll stick with manga like Collectors, by Nishi UKO or anything by Takemiya Jin for my go-to "it's got real lesbians" series that a handful of people are ever going to know about.

Plenty of series have a legit lesbian couple, but mainstream is on a different order. I could have mentioned Devil Lady, or Stellvia if I was just pulling out random series with couples. (Although, admittedly, I did mention Mai HiME, which falls into the same category.)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I completely agree. It's just that Kanememo is an example, but not the most notable or the one that came to mind in that particular conversation.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:52 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:


Anime is made for Japanese audiences, specifically the fans that keep the whole thing afloat. They are not driven by American cultural imperatives.


I'm really glad I made this thread, so now I can just copy paste this link whenever someone throws this argument out there. Gonna save me a lot of time Smile

animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4869305#4869305
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8025
Location: IL
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:09 pm Reply with quote
yuricon wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you. I completely agree. It's just that Kanememo is an example, but not the most notable or the one that came to mind in that particular conversation.

The examples you provided are all manga. There is plenty of same-sex relationships in manga. That's not a particularly new frontier. I want to see more anime with relationships like Yume and Yuuki. Two members of the same sex who are not treated any more different/special by the story than a typical heterosexual relationship.

It's just a bit disappointing for me that the decision by the creator/producer/director/comittee/etc to have a pair like Yume and Yuuki, not mere bait, not a New Game-esque subtext, but an actual moments of romantic tenderness and love, back in 2009 doesn't get hardly any recognition in these sort of conversations. Is that just not something that the LGBTQ anime community wishes to see? Or is that something that should stay in manga form and not be adapted to anime?

I haven't seen Mai Hime in a decade, but as far as I can recall there were a few girls who were obsessed with another girl but I can't recall an actual definite pair beyond typical subtext. The closest I can think of for that era is either Kiddy Grade (which goes a bit beyond subtext but still doesn't quite have it out in the open), Vandread (sort of forced by society due to the genders being isolated) or Simoun ("Pairs" were formed seemingly more out of necessity than romance)

EDIT: Also, one thing to keep in mind, most of your suggestions and my additions are science fiction. Others in sci-fi/fantasy such Kannazuki no Miko or Yamibou also exist. However Kanamemo does not take place in some other-world setting. It's on Earth. It's in Japan. The girls work to deliver newspapers. To me that makes it mean just a bit more if that's understandable.

Added youtube video for cute Yume/Yuuki AMV. I really did forget how many intimate scenes those two had.

If you can think of dozens of anime that have relationships like Yume and Yuuki then please by all means list them, either here or to me via PM.


Last edited by Megiddo on Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:13 pm; edited 4 times in total
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4215
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:27 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
TarsTarkas wrote:


Anime is made for Japanese audiences, specifically the fans that keep the whole thing afloat. They are not driven by American cultural imperatives.


I'm really glad I made this thread, so now I can just copy paste this link whenever someone throws this argument out there. Gonna save me a lot of time Smile

animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4869305#4869305


Except it is misapplied in this instance. Believe it was Justin who told us who is keeping the anime industry in Japan afloat.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:52 pm Reply with quote
You made the same general argument as what is referenced in my thread. It's the same thing. Telling people their voice means nothing because it's not made "for them." It's a "resistance is futile" argument, so I am going to start calling it The Borg Argument for short.
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Alan45
Village ElderVillage Elder


Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 8629
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:34 pm Reply with quote
@ChibiKangaroo

A lot depends on just why you are criticizing an anime. If your intent is to explain to others why they should or should not be watching a show, or what to expect when they do watch it, then yes criticism is appropriate, including such issues as gay representation.

If, on the other hand, you are saying a given show should have been made differently. Or if you are saying that in the future anime should be made differently, then, likely resistance is futile. You are more or less banging your head against a brick wall. The Japanese industry isn't even going to hear you much less respond to your complaints.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:34 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
I'm really glad I made this thread, so now I can just copy paste this link whenever someone throws this argument out there. Gonna save me a lot of time Smile

animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4869305#4869305


That thread seems like a whole orchard of sour grapes. I guese you're free to complain about anime all you wanted to but don't expect Japan to actually listen. Don't see anything wrong with saying anime is for Japan and their market first and foremost.

It's just like people who say shonen need to have better written females or less fan service despite the fact it's clearly aimed at men and not women. If you want to watch story for women than watch a shoujo. Only in America is it expected that everything appeals to everyone at the same time, and people complain when their group isn't being catered to. Meanwhile in Japan there's many different genres for many different demographics and you're free to pick and choose what you want. It seems dumb to complain about a store selling bananas instead of apples when the store next door sells apples aplenty.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4215
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:33 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
You made the same general argument as what is referenced in my thread. It's the same thing. Telling people their voice means nothing because it's not made "for them." It's a "resistance is futile" argument, so I am going to start calling it The Borg Argument for short.

Sorry, but that is not what I am saying. After all, I think we all should be screaming over what Aniplex is doing. But I am willing to admit that Aniplex couldn't care less what I think.

I am sure that all the Japanese are hearing is the blah blah intonations, from Charlie Brown cartoons, when the adults talk. They already know Western fans hate them for not catering to them, for not being politically correct, and to them catering to the young Japanese male demographic with 'evil' male gaze assorted stuff.

Speaking your mind or opinion is all well and good, but if you really want to effect change, then you need to outspend or at least achieve some sort of spending parity vs the young Japanese male demographic that supports the anime industry.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5324
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:51 pm Reply with quote
The problem with this argument is that it's the exact same spiel that was swirled around a lot some five years ago in regards to female-oriented anime "you're barking at the wrong tree", "you won't get what you want from this industry" "mainstream media will never cater to you".

You people are talking as if male otaku were still the overwhelming majority in the market, but considering how 3 out of the 5 highest selling shows of 2016 were aimed at the female audience, you may want to revise your statement about young male otaku sustaining the industry.

Anime is not a monolithic industry, as the fast rise of the fujoshi market has proved. Yuri on Ice's massive success among not only women but also queer audiences proves there's a market for that. And people coming to this forum to express their hopes that this market gets more stuff aimed at them doesn't hurt you in the slightest, so I fail to understand the necessity of hammering time and time again that it's impossible or it won't happen (which you can't know for certain)
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8025
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:44 am Reply with quote
Exactly, there will continue to be shows baiting fujoshi because it continues to sell. That's just how the anime industry rolls.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:56 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Sorry, but that is not what I am saying. After all, I think we all should be screaming over what Aniplex is doing. But I am willing to admit that Aniplex couldn't care less what I think.

I am sure that all the Japanese are hearing is the blah blah intonations, from Charlie Brown cartoons, when the adults talk. They already know Western fans hate them for not catering to them, for not being politically correct, and to them catering to the young Japanese male demographic with 'evil' male gaze assorted stuff.

Speaking your mind or opinion is all well and good, but if you really want to effect change, then you need to outspend or at least achieve some sort of spending parity vs the young Japanese male demographic that supports the anime industry.


Well thank you oh speaker for "the Japanese" for telling us all what they are thinking and hearing and doing. Doesn't that sound at least a little silly to you? Do you really profess to speak for "the Japanese" and what they know or do not know? This is the point of my thread that I made. People making that argument get caught up in such broad ethnic generalizations.

The thing is, this forum is not about what "the Japanese" do or do not think. This forum is for members of the forum to discuss shows and air whatever opinions they may have. So telling people not to air their opinions because of what "the Japanese" allegedly know or believe is pretty silly.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4215
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:19 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:

You people are talking as if male otaku were still the overwhelming majority in the market, but considering how 3 out of the 5 highest selling shows of 2016 were aimed at the female audience, you may want to revise your statement about young male otaku sustaining the industry.


I'll revise my opinion when you get Justin to say that publicly in regards to anime. Since that wasn't what was said, not too long ago.

CrowLia wrote:

Anime is not a monolithic industry, as the fast rise of the fujoshi market has proved. Yuri on Ice's massive success among not only women but also queer audiences proves there's a market for that. And people coming to this forum to express their hopes that this market gets more stuff aimed at them doesn't hurt you in the slightest, so I fail to understand the necessity of hammering time and time again that it's impossible or it won't happen (which you can't know for certain)


Not saying it is impossible, but Japan is not like America. If you all make it profitable for the Japanese, then it will happen. But who knows the time table.

But there are difficulties, but I guess you don't like it when we bring them up.


Last edited by TarsTarkas on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:35 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
The problem with this argument is that it's the exact same spiel that was swirled around a lot some five years ago in regards to female-oriented anime "you're barking at the wrong tree", "you won't get what you want from this industry" "mainstream media will never cater to you".

You people are talking as if male otaku were still the overwhelming majority in the market, but considering how 3 out of the 5 highest selling shows of 2016 were aimed at the female audience, you may want to revise your statement about young male otaku sustaining the industry.


Females have always been a part of industry it's not some new thing in the last couple years brought on by people complaining on American websites. There's been popular mainstream shoujo since the 1960s. That's the point... women went out and created what they wanted to see not sit around and insisted other shows change what they do in order to appease them like people do here.

Quote:
Anime is not a monolithic industry, as the fast rise of the fujoshi market has proved. Yuri on Ice's massive success among not only women but also queer audiences proves there's a market for that. And people coming to this forum to express their hopes that this market gets more stuff aimed at them doesn't hurt you in the slightest, so I fail to understand the necessity of hammering time and time again that it's impossible or it won't happen (which you can't know for certain)


Last time this popped up you guys scoffed at the idea of Yuri on Ice being aimed at gay guys, and insisted only women drove sales. Now suddenly when it is convenient for your argument on representation it owes it's success to gay men as well? How exactly do you know who bought a show and who didn't? As far as I'm aware they never release demographic statistics, so that argument is flimsy. Besides, people already went into YoI's dancing around the gay issue for a couple pages awhile back. Seems like plenty of people don't hold it to some amazing example worth following and it's just going to lead to more fujobait like Megiddo said. The industry will follow where the money is. Meanwhile, Yurikuma Arashi and Wandering Son sell poorly, so it's not those explicit looks on sexuality apprently, its sports shows that feel the need to never confirm a possible gay pairing or risk alienating lots of potential sales from men and women not into that stuff people here seem to have theorized.
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