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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 12668
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:50 am Reply with quote
While we use "shoujo-ai", "shounen-ai", "yuri", and "yaoi" a lot in English, those terms aren't usu. used in Japan. They tend to use GL or BL. Just throwing that in.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:51 am Reply with quote
Lord Oink wrote:
women went out and created what they wanted to see not sit around and insisted other shows change what they do in order to appease them like people do here.


Oooohh, is that all it takes then? Well, let me go into my magical anime studio that I just happen to have in my attic and we will go ahead and crank out a few hit shows and Crunchyroll and/or Funimation will gladly distribute them eh? Wow! If I knew it was that simple, that I could just use my own anime studio that I just happened to have laying about, this all could have been solved days ago!! Thank You Lord Oink. You have saved us all.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5324
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:26 am Reply with quote
Lord Oink wrote:


Last time this popped up you guys scoffed at the idea of Yuri on Ice being aimed at gay guys, and insisted only women drove sales.


This was never said. Not once. Quote me. What was said and is well-known is that the main buying audience is female, and reports from the all-night event confirm that. But it is also evident that -at the very least- foreign media and queer viewers have picked up on the queer aspects of the story and praised them to hell and back. People who call the show as "moneygrabbing fujobait" are a minority, and most of them are people salty about something they don't like getting this popular. On the other hand, fans of the show who are disatisfied by the ambiguity don't seem to have doubts about whether Victor and Yuuri are gay and in love, just whether they're in an explicit relationship. Sayo Yamamoto has never shied away from portraying homosexuality in her work, and the visual language of the show is as explicit as can be imho.

I have no metric to gauge how Japanese LGBT viewers have reacted to the show save from some passing comments from people who do follow japanese fans, and those are overall positive, but given the growing amount of Western capitals being invested in the anime industry, that the show has gained such massive popularity in the the west (to the point of high-demand crashing both Crunchyroll and tumblr the day the last episode aired) thanks to -among other things- the LGBT aspects means there's a market for that.
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yuricon



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 115
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
The examples you provided are all manga. There is plenty of same-sex relationships in manga.


Devil Lady, Stellvia and Mai HiME are all anime as well. In fact, in all cases, the anime was significantly more openly queer than the manga.

But, yes, I will always care more about manga precisely because it has more room for openly gay stories. hence my vote going to My Brother's Husband over Yuri on Ice!.
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EmperorBrandon
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 2082
Location: Springfield, MO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Kadmos1 wrote:
While we use "shoujo-ai", "shounen-ai", "yuri", and "yaoi" a lot in English, those terms aren't usu. used in Japan. They tend to use GL or BL. Just throwing that in.

While I think you're right on the others, I doubt that is correct with yuri. I've seen the term "yuri" much more often on Japanese websites like Pixiv than "girls' love" or "GL".
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:19 pm Reply with quote
yuricon wrote:
Megiddo wrote:
The examples you provided are all manga. There is plenty of same-sex relationships in manga.


Devil Lady, Stellvia and Mai HiME are all anime as well. In fact, in all cases, the anime was significantly more openly queer than the manga.

But, yes, I will always care more about manga precisely because it has more room for openly gay stories. hence my vote going to My Brother's Husband over Yuri on Ice!.


Manga definately has more options available for this kind of subject. Anime about this subject rarely see commercial success. For example, I've always taken CrowLia's comments on people who say the female market doesn't do well as people referring to josei works, which typically do poorly commercially. Gokusen only saw a single cour as an anime, but as a J-Drama it saw multiple series and a movie. You can also find a lot more live-action adaptions of shoujo and josei then you can anime, so whether this indicates adult women don't care for anime and would rather watch live action, thus leaving the majority of the female anime market up to BL lovers piggybacking off of shonen shows like Kuroko as well as children's shoujo made to sell toys like Pretty Cure and PriPara, or live-action is cheaper and less risky for those series, is probably worth a deeper look into.

As for this topic, the same logic is why most anime about LGBT stuff is aimed at straight people who fetishize it, rather than the LGBT people themselves. Do Japanese LGBT prefer manga? Or is there simply not enough of them to financially support anime adaptions? Keep in mind that while women make up 50% of the population, gay people make up far less, and transgender people even smaller. At one point people have to accept that a market is just too small to really be financially successful, which leads a lot of those stories only available in manga which is a lot cheaper to produce and maintain and allow more niche subjects to be covered without risking financial loss.

-Stuart Smith
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:01 pm Reply with quote
^

I think though that you are assuming that an LGBTQ themed show that is aimed at heterosexuals has to be fetishized. That is a big assumption, and it is based mostly on "the way things have been" rather than challenging conventions. That's why I said before anime is very rigid. And that is the only reason that I don't think things will improve soon, not because the audience isn't there. I think most young people these days are pretty comfortable with their sexuality, much more so than older generations, and thus I don't think LGBTQ themes have to be fetishized in order for today's hetero youth to enjoy it.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5324
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:19 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
For example, I've always taken CrowLia's comments on people who say the female market doesn't do well as people referring to josei works, which typically do poorly commercially.


Uh, no, I didn't mean that at all. My gripe towards that narrative comes from the good ole' days in which there was a very vocal crowd claiming Free would be a commercial failure because women don't buy anime, soon to be followed by "well Free was a success but only because men bought it too because no way women buy so much anime"

On the subject of Yuri on Ice not being "explicitly" gay, a video of a roundtable discussion on the show just came out today headed by mangaka Reiji Yamada who is close friends with Sayo Yamamoto and his comments on the show were such as:

Quote:
No matter how you look at it…this show is depicting a ‘gay world’. But there was absolutely NO allusion to that at all. So you’ve got Yuuri and Victor, and at no point do they look at each other and go, 'Wait, we’re both guys!’ […] The way that, in their world, men falling in love with men is totally normal and no big deal is something that’s been built up [thanks to the precedent of other fictional works in our world] over the past twenty years.


Video can be found here. The quoted part starts at 2:06.
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