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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4187
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:12 pm Reply with quote
ParaChomp wrote:
The problem people are talking about with Dragon Maid is NOT that it's a homosexual relationship between children. No, by all means, this is perfectly fine. The problem is that it's objectifying a child's body.


If the girls are in kindergarten, none of that is "perfectly fine". Rolling Eyes

Way too freaking young.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:36 am Reply with quote
ParaChomp wrote:
The problem people are talking about with Dragon Maid is NOT that it's a homosexual relationship between children. No, by all means, this is perfectly fine. The problem is that it's objectifying a child's body.



You are out of your f-u-c-k-i-n-g mind. And then you've got to ask yourselves why the mainstream at large considers anime fandom a bunch of freaking perverts and pedophiles.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:04 am Reply with quote
I haven't watched Dragon Maid for a few episodes now. I suppose that as soon as I saw they introduced the loli dragon though, I knew she was going to be involved in sexy schenanigans. They can't help themselves ;0
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BodaciousSpacePirate
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 2807
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:19 am Reply with quote
Cptn_Taylor wrote:
ParaChomp wrote:
The problem people are talking about with Dragon Maid is NOT that it's a homosexual relationship between children. No, by all means, this is perfectly fine. The problem is that it's objectifying a child's body.



You are out of your f-u-c-k-i-n-g mind. And then you've got to ask yourselves why the mainstream at large considers anime fandom a bunch of freaking perverts and pedophiles.


It's not really the "homosexual relationship" aspect of it that people are bothered by, though, it's the "relationship" aspect. It obviously doesn't automatically make it more "perverted" just because they are both girls.
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ParaChomp



Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:54 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
If the girls are in kindergarten, none of that is "perfectly fine". Rolling Eyes

Way too freaking young.
Having a very strong relationship is fine, having a young child's tits and ass shoved in your face is not.

Cptn_Taylor wrote:
You are out of your f-u-c-k-i-n-g mind. And then you've got to ask yourselves why the mainstream at large considers anime fandom a bunch of freaking perverts and pedophiles.
I might be out of my mind but at least I can read.

BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
It's not really the "homosexual relationship" aspect of it that people are bothered by, though, it's the "relationship" aspect. It obviously doesn't automatically make it more "perverted" just because they are both girls.
Thank you.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:09 pm Reply with quote
ParaChomp wrote:
Having a very strong relationship is fine.


Your Mileage Mary Vary. Kids that young......no....not only is it really ridiculous because kindergarteners don't get sexual feelings for other people, it's also squicky. I don't think it's fine....and I'm quite convinced this anime series is not one I'd enjoy very much.
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vonPeterhof
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Joined: 10 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:50 pm Reply with quote
^FWIW "kindergarten" is an exaggeration; they're in third grade of elementary school. Probably not very different in terms of squick, but at least more realistic in terms of the age of the onset of puberty, as Saikawa should be around 10 (Kanna is a dragon so her age is probably much bigger, but she's implied to be at a comparable developmental stage).
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:20 am Reply with quote
Kanna actually LOOKS like a five-year-old though....so you can imagine why people find that creepy. After viewing the Twister clip for myself, I think that shoving a little girl's face into another little girl's butt "for the lulz" is definitely uncalled for. Same with Kanna bouncing on the bed with her legs spread wide so Riko can take a good long look at her panties.

Yup. Creepy. Confused True, they didn't get really tasteless with showing the audience what Riko saw but....they could maybe choose to not write that in the first place?
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:23 am Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Kanna actually LOOKS like a five-year-old though....so you can imagine why people find that creepy. After viewing the Twister clip for myself, I think that shoving a little girl's face into another little girl's butt "for the lulz" is definitely uncalled for. Same with Kanna bouncing on the bed with her legs spread wide so Riko can take a good long look at her panties.

Yup. Creepy. Confused True, they didn't get really tasteless with showing the audience what Riko saw but....they could maybe choose to not write that in the first place?


Unfortunately, they can't. It's what I was speaking of earlier in the thread about LGBTQ issues. Anime is rigid and formulaic. If a loli character is introduced in any show that is not pokemon level kids stuff, she is going to be exploited in some way to some greater or lesser degree. The audience expects it, and some might demand it. It only really annoys me to the extent that it has become required standard procedure in any young adult aimed show. It reinforces for me just how repetitive and recycled so much of anime is these days.
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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:02 am Reply with quote
CK, you overstate the case by saying emphatically, "...If a loli character is introduced in any show that is not pokemon level kids stuff, she is going to be exploited in some way to some greater or lesser degree."

Bunny Drop, Sweetness and Lightning, the two Non Non Biyori seasons and Barakamon are all examples of shows where loli characters were front and centre and there wasn't even the slightest whiff of inappropriateness. You simply do not watch enough anime to be making these kind of blanket statements. Not that that is going to stop you, of course.

For anyone who actually watches anime, it is understood that the primary function of most loli characters is for the kawaii. Yes, there are examples of when a sexualized element is introduced as, lamentably, Dragon Maid recently did, but to assert that this is uniform industry practise is ridiculous.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:11 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
CK, you overstate the case by saying emphatically, "...If a loli character is introduced in any show that is not pokemon level kids stuff, she is going to be exploited in some way to some greater or lesser degree."

Bunny Drop, Sweetness and Lightning, the two Non Non Biyori seasons and Barakamon are all examples of shows where loli characters were front and centre and there wasn't even the slightest whiff of inappropriateness. You simply do not watch enough anime to be making these kind of blanket statements. Not that that is going to stop you, of course.

For anyone who actually watches anime, it is understood that the primary function of most loli characters is for the kawaii. Yes, there are examples of when a sexualized element is introduced as, lamentably, Dragon Maid recently did, but to assert that this is uniform industry practise is ridiculous.


I said to some "greater or lesser degree." It's not always explicit. But let's not pretend what the purpose of such characters is. Also, I don't categorize every underage female character as a loli. You know a loli when you see one however. For example, they tend to have "shiny" effects applied to them in some shows and receive outsized attention for their usually minimal role in the overall narrative. The moe usually gets turned up 1000% and they may enter into a "big brother little sister" relationship or something similar with the self insert male lead. I remember years back Jacob was commenting on one of these allegedly innocent shows where some bland otaku everyman somehow winds up as "father" of three underage girls and not only is the youngest one shown with "shiny" effects, but Jacob cometed in a review how she kept being shown eating "dick shaped foods." I think it was "Listen to Me Girls I'm Your Father."

It may be true that it is a slight exaggeration to say every show aimed at young adults will do that, but to claim that it is NOT a recognizable and very commonly used trope is ignoring the truth. It is easily common enough to expect it and when it doesnt happen, that is a pleasant surprise.
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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:59 pm Reply with quote
Wow, what a catalogue of fuzzy, vague, unsupported statements. I reacted to your original statement that:

Quote:
"...If a loli character is introduced in any show that is not pokemon level kids stuff, she is going to be exploited in some way to some greater or lesser degree."


You were pretty emphatic on that point. I then cited a number of shows where that was emphatically not true. Not just shows were the loli characters were exploited "in some way to some greater or lesser degree" but where there was ZERO degree of exploitation. Of course, you are in no position to either agree or disagree with my assessment since you haven't actually seen those shows ... a state of affairs that pertains to probably 99% of anime's output over the last 5 years, not that will stop you from making sweeping generalizations, of course.

As I said in my previous post, it is not my contention to say that the sexualization of lolis doesn't exist in anime - it does. Its just that it's not this all pervasive trope that you - a person who doesn't actually watch much anime - would have us believe.

Oh, by the way, the reviewer who commented on "Listen to Me Girls, I'm Your Father" propensity to show the loli character eating "dick-shaped" foods was Bamboo Dong. And reading a comment like that without - as I did - watching the entire show to completion would give you an entirely misconceived view of how the loli character was handled. Believe me, any perv who seeks out the title because of hopes that character was played for "rowrs" would be severely disappointed. Despite that, it's still not a show I would include in my list of "zero" loli inappropriateness like the ones above.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:45 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Wow, what a catalogue of fuzzy, vague, unsupported statements. I reacted to your original statement that:

Quote:
"...If a loli character is introduced in any show that is not pokemon level kids stuff, she is going to be exploited in some way to some greater or lesser degree."


You were pretty emphatic on that point. I then cited a number of shows where that was emphatically not true. Not just shows were the loli characters were exploited "in some way to some greater or lesser degree" but where there was ZERO degree of exploitation. Of course, you are in no position to either agree or disagree with my assessment since you haven't actually seen those shows ... a state of affairs that pertains to probably 99% of anime's output over the last 5 years, not that will stop you from making sweeping generalizations, of course.

As I said in my previous post, it is not my contention to say that the sexualization of lolis doesn't exist in anime - it does. Its just that it's not this all pervasive trope that you - a person who doesn't actually watch much anime - would have us believe.


Excuse me, but have you watched "99% of anime put out in the last 5 years?" Nope. So you can let that whole argument go because you are claiming to have specific knowledge of virtually every show that has come out in that period to the extent that you can claim that a commonly known trope does not apply to them. I'm simply relying on the existense of something that is well known in the community and which I or anyone else (including you) could create a lengthy list of examples. You are arguing a negative, which I'll grant you is harder to prove, but given the unquestionably common presence of the "loli" archetype in anime over the last few decades, I feel more confident in my assumptions that it is a greater issue than your assumptions that it is a lesser one.


Quote:

Oh, by the way, the reviewer who commented on "Listen to Me Girls, I'm Your Father" propensity to show the loli character eating "dick-shaped" foods was Bamboo Dong. And reading a comment like that without - as I did - watching the entire show to completion would give you an entirely misconceived view of how the loli character was handled. Believe me, any perv who seeks out the title because of hopes that character was played for "rowrs" would be severely disappointed. Despite that, it's still not a show I would include in my list of "zero" loli inappropriateness like the ones above.


Great, I'll have to thank Bamboo for the comment then. But yea, I seem to recall "papa chan" also walking in on the girls undressing and such. Again, this just proves my overall point. You think that show was more or less kosher. Fine, but the point is that that type of loil stuff has been normalized in anime. Your ho-hum reaction to it is evidence of the truth of that statement.
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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:31 pm Reply with quote
In 2016, I watched 77 currently airing TV shows to completion. 2010 was the first year I got seriously into watching currently airing TV shows and I only watched 36 to completion. My total has gone up every year since then. In other words, my ability to assess anime tropes is SIGNIFICANTLY more fact based than your own. And I'm here to tell you that examples of sexualized lolis are fairly rare. Now, if you think I'm full of it, please provide me a list of shows that proves otherwise.

And once again, you mischaracterize something I've said. I've never said that Listen to Me Girls, I'm Your Father was a "kosher" show - I said that people watching it hoping for a sexualized loli would be disappointed. Neither of the two other sisters were lolis. You may also notice that I specifically said it was NOT a show I would put on my "zero loli inappropriateness" list. In addition to eating dick-shaped foods, the loli character was the completely innocent target of inappropriate interest by both an adult male and female character. Thankfully, she was blissfully unaware of this and nothing in her own behaviour indicated any kind of inappropriate interest.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:27 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
In 2016, I watched 77 currently airing TV shows to completion. 2010 was the first year I got seriously into watching currently airing TV shows and I only watched 36 to completion. My total has gone up every year since then. In other words, my ability to assess anime tropes is SIGNIFICANTLY more fact based than your own. And I'm here to tell you that examples of sexualized lolis are fairly rare. Now, if you think I'm full of it, please provide me a list of shows that proves otherwise.


I don't think so Smile

Consider this question, and be honest. This applies generally to these kinds of Internet debates. Say I went and spent 20 to 30 hours compiling a very detailed, heavily researched and annotated list of shows and loli examples where such characters were objectified in some way, and then presented that here in this thread. Would your response likely be to say, "Wow, thank you CK for doing all thy work and showing how extensive loli objectification is in anime! I honor the significant sacrifice in time that you just made to simply prove an obvious point on the Internet." Or, would you look at the list and be like, "mhmm. But I disagree."

So yea, I should ask you the same question. To go through all of these anime you claim to have watched, list out every single loli, and demonstrate how they weren't objectified. But I'm not going to waste our time with that either. Instead, I'll say this. From here on out, well just start a running tally of new shows that have loli characters and try to see how often said characters are objectified in any way hinting at sexuality. How about that?

Quote:
In addition to eating dick-shaped foods, the loli character was the completely innocent target of inappropriate interest by both an adult male and female character. Thankfully, she was blissfully unaware of this and nothing in her own behaviour indicated any kind of inappropriate interest.


Oh yea, I completely forgot about the gross otaku friend of papa-chan who was lusting after the girls lol. But geeze, you see my point?? Smile
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